Did Satan sin before or after Creation week?

[CharismaticLady]

I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

Note highlighted sections.

Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

 

[com7fy8]

One scripture I think of is what Jesus says >

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

 

[CharismaticLady]

One scripture I think of is what Jesus says >

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

Yes, but how long before or after Adam and Eve sinned? Did he sin with Adam and Eve, then run back to heaven, and then got kicked out?

If the Garden of Eden was created for Lucifer and was in heaven, then brought to earth, was it taken from Lucifer because he sinned first?

 

[CharismaticLady]

@BCsenior and @Oscarr

I saw read Ezekiel 28 last night and would like your imput on the number of questions I now have.

Thanks, brothers

 

[Carl Emerson]

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

1. NO
2. NO
3. Earth - When in chronological time not stated.
5. NO.
6. Planted by God from what was created.

This is my humble offering...

 

[CharismaticLady]

1. NO
2. NO
3. Earth - When in chronological time not stated.
5. NO.
6. Planted by God from what was created.

and @Oscarr

Are you guys looking at what I highlighted that raised these questions, or just a knee jerk reaction, going by what you've always believed? If I had never read this chapter, I would have agreed with you because that is what I was always taught also.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One scripture I think of is what Jesus says >

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

If you examine the context of that verse, you will see that Jesus said it when the disciples came back after being sent out around the towns and villages, rejoicing that the demons were subject to them. Jesus was not referring to Lucifier's original expulsion from heaven, but that Satan, through the victories that the disciples had in the towns and villages, being commissioned and empowered by Jesus, fell from his position of power and authority and could no longer resist the Holy Spirit ministry through the disciples.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The thing to keep clear is that the chronological created heaven is a different realm than the eternal heaven. Satan is a created being in the Chronological created heaven only.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

and @Oscarr

Are you guys looking at what I highlighted that raised these questions, or just a knee jerk reaction, going by what you've always believed? If I had never read this chapter, I would have agreed with you because that is what I was always taught also.

What we have to bear in mind is that this is prophetic literature. Notice that the first part of the prophecy is directed to "the prince of Tyre". This is a judgment against the city of Tyre and its ruler because of their sin against God. The prophecy was fulfilled when Alexander laid siege and destroyed the city. Alexander was 'a stranger' to them, which shows how accurately the prophecy was fulfilled.

The second part is directed at 'the king of Tyre'. It does not seem to describe the ruler of the city of Tyre, and it may refer to the principality ruling over Tyre, whom the Lord is indicating is the real ruler and the one who is inciting the city to sin against God. Because a principality represents Satan, the Lord may be speaking of the "organ grinder" and not the "monkey", and so is describing Lucifer as he was before he was lifted up with pride and rebelled against God.

If the earthly garden of Eden is representative of heaven, then the prophecy could be speaking of the heavenly "Eden" where the throne of God is. Another possibility is that Satan was present in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve to sin, and is now present in Tyre to tempt the rulers and people to sin against God, and therefore judgment is on the way.

The last part of the prophecy is interesting, because it speaks of the return of the Jews to their own land. Right up to 1949, Bible commentators would have seen this prophecy still to be fulfilled in the future. After 1949, we see that the prophecy is being fulfilled, and the Jews are living in their land and planting vineyards as Ezekiel prophesied so many centuries before.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, but how long before or after Adam and Eve sinned? Did he sin with Adam and Eve, then run back to heaven, and then got kicked out?

I say I have been assuming Satan got kicked out before Adam and Eve were created. But I do not think of any scripture I know about this.

What gets my attention, in any case, is how fast Satan fell . . . "like lightning" (in Luke 10:18). He was no match for Heaven and Jesus and His angels!!! So, we can feed on this >

"You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." (1 John 4:4)

So, with God we are in His grace almighty to keep us safe spiritually and emotionally, and to have us succeed in doing whatever our Father is committed to doing with us. So, even if we do not know the answers to some number of questions, we can feed on this.

 

[com7fy8]

If you examine the context of that verse, you will see that Jesus said it when the disciples came back after being sent out around the towns and villages, rejoicing that the demons were subject to them. Jesus was not referring to Lucifier's original expulsion from heaven, but that Satan, through the victories that the disciples had in the towns and villages, being commissioned and empowered by Jesus, fell from his position of power and authority and could no longer resist the Holy Spirit ministry through the disciples.

But what about Hebrews 2:14-15?

Yes, Jesus was relating Satan's fall like lightning to how the disciples were able to cast out demons. But this could have been to reinforce how Jesus had greater power than Satan, that Heaven which cast out Satan was now working through the disciples.

And was Satan already totally fallen? Like I offer > what about Jesus on the cross defeating Satan, like I understand Hebrews 2:14-15 means? And what about all we see in Revelation? It appears to me, how even then there will be more which Jesus does to end Satan's activity on this earth.

After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven.

I have assumed he was cast to this earth. And I do now see that Luke 10:18 can be used to get different ideas.

Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?

I would say Satan was first, having been created before this universe. And then he spread his evil spirit to humans > Ephesians 2:2 is a scripture I consider with this.

 

[mmksparbud]

I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

Note highlighted sections.

Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

There is no way of telling time in the creation story other than creation took 7 days. He couldn't have been in the garden before creation for it wasn't created yet. He had access to it is for sure. How long he was there before he tempted Adam and Eve can not be discerned from the text. There is a possibility from Ezekiel 28 that he may have had access to the garden before he fell. But at some point he fell while in heaven as he took 1/3 of the angels with him before he was cast out. Then he turned his anger at Adam and Eve.
It doesn't have any bearing on our salvation at all. It is an interesting thing to ponder but of no real importance that I can see. He is the originator of sin, and he will pay for what he has done. He will be destroyed, and he knows it. He wants as much company as possible. Not only because misery loves company, but to get back at God by taking creations He died to save.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you guys looking at what I highlighted that raised these questions, or just a knee jerk reaction, going by what you've always believed? If I had never read this chapter, I would have agreed with you because that is what I was always taught also.

For sure let's explore these issues without prejudice and work out what the scripture teaches about its self.
I have had no denominational training, just years of reading the word and some non-denominational study.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The matter that is most important is not to attribute status to Satan above what he presently has and has had.

The reason for this being important is that we need to know how our authority in Christ relates to his.

I don't believe he is eternal uncreated being like the 24 elders and the order of Melchizedek.

And his falling when the disciples went out was from the highest created heaven, not the eternal heaven with no beginning.

His fall before the temptation in the garden was associated with pride, this resulted in him becoming a deceiver in Eden.

We need to be clear which heaven he was cast out from.

I don't want to add to the word, but look forward to exploring this further.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But what about Hebrews 2:14-15?

Yes, Jesus was relating Satan's fall like lightning to how the disciples were able to cast out demons. But this could have been to reinforce how Jesus had greater power than Satan, that Heaven which cast out Satan was now working through the disciples.

And was Satan already totally fallen? Like I offer > what about Jesus on the cross defeating Satan, like I understand Hebrews 2:14-15 means? And what about all we see in Revelation? It appears to me, how even then there will be more which Jesus does to end Satan's activity on this earth.

True. When Jesus saw Satan falling from heaven. depicting his fall from his position of authority and power, it was the first stage in his final defeat. Much like the D-Day landings in 1944 were the first stage in the defeat of Germany. In a sense Germany had lost the war at that point, but it was still a formidable enemy and more battles needed to be fought to achieve final victory.

The death and resurrection of Jesus stripped Satan of his power over death and hell. This was the next stage. The first stage was Satan's inability to stop believers casting demons out of people and healing those oppressed by the devil. The next stage was to take Satan's power of death and hell from him and put them into the hands of Christ. This means that death and hell are no longer issues for those who put their faith and trust in Christ for salvation. The devil no longer has any power to take believers out of the hands of Christ and cancel their eternal life.

But Satan is still the god of this world, and he still has power over the world systems and the unconverted. His final defeat will be when that power is stripped from him, he and his demons cast into the lake of fire, no having any influence at all in the new world that will be created for those who love God and who have faith in Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What we have to bear in mind is that this is prophetic literature. Notice that the first part of the prophecy is directed to "the prince of Tyre". This is a judgment against the city of Tyre and its ruler because of their sin against God. The prophecy was fulfilled when Alexander laid siege and destroyed the city. Alexander was 'a stranger' to them, which shows how accurately the prophecy was fulfilled.

The second part is directed at 'the king of Tyre'. It does not seem to describe the ruler of the city of Tyre, and it may refer to the principality ruling over Tyre, whom the Lord is indicating is the real ruler and the one who is inciting the city to sin against God. Because a principality represents Satan, the Lord may be speaking of the "organ grinder" and not the "monkey", and so is describing Lucifer as he was before he was lifted up with pride and rebelled against God.

If the earthly garden of Eden is representative of heaven, then the prophecy could be speaking of the heavenly "Eden" where the throne of God is. Another possibility is that Satan was present in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve to sin, and is now present in Tyre to tempt the rulers and people to sin against God, and therefore judgment is on the way.

The last part of the prophecy is interesting, because it speaks of the return of the Jews to their own land. Right up to 1949, Bible commentators would have seen this prophecy still to be fulfilled in the future. After 1949, we see that the prophecy is being fulfilled, and the Jews are living in their land and planting vineyards as Ezekiel prophesied so many centuries before.

Do you see that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned? So when was he cast out of heaven? And when did he have time to convince a third of the angels to sin also?

cc: @mmksparbud , @com7fy8 , @Carl Emerson

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sparse references to this topic in the Word...

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you see that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned? So when was he cast out of heaven? And when did he have time to convince a third of the angels to sin also?

cc: @mmksparbud , @com7fy8 , @Carl Emerson

Just a possibility---Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

This seems to describe him before the fall. That's just a big maybe as we do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell. But in my post I said that he fell in heaven for there he lead 1/3 of the angels to his side. Then he was cast out and he turned his anger towards Adam and Eve.

 

[SkyWriting]

I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

Note highlighted sections.

Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Thank You! I was unaware of this passage but it backs what I've been claiming for months that Eden was not on this earth.

I would say that Eden was not a physical place at first Satan and the angels were cast out, then man was cast out to the realm of Satan as well. We are currently born into this Sin environment that was formed when Satan was cast out. Satan did not eat, so plants and animals were created from the dust by God, just for us, in Eden. God brought the animals to Adam to name them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you see that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned? So when was he cast out of heaven? And when did he have time to convince a third of the angels to sin also?

cc: @mmksparbud , @com7fy8 , @Carl Emerson

I don't see that at all. Lucifer sinned long before God created the world and planted the Garden of Eden. Lucifer had become Satan and was God's implacable enemy when he entered the Garden as a serpent and successfully tempted Eve to sin against God.