Did Paul Do This?

[loNe]

..Jubilees tells much more the core of the (same) sory, as scripture does:
the whole point there is,
that Juda is powered by a mixture of ancient-egypt and Gods power :
but he doesnt realize he is

then starts the war between Joseph (10) and Juda :
Juda crushing a stone :
joseph ordering his son to do the same thing

..Juda getting more angry,
Joseph ordering his son to counter it.

Remember :
Joseph had the legal right allready about everything of ancient-Egypt [ = this matrix !] . Juda, however, was complete Unaware.

3d war :
"and judah's eyes were dripping blood of anger [against Joseph] "

now,
this is where we are, at the moment.





= Juda, powered by a mixture,
is warring Joseph -- the 10 tribes.
Saying he is the original heir of God :
yet completely ignorant that he is powered by ancient-egypt !!

Joseph then
plays a game :
shouting 'where are you'....?

untill, finally, Juda understands :

and he virtually passes out of fear
when his eyes are finally opened

 

[Emli]

In 1 Corinthians Paul speaks about divisions in the Church. How some were saying they were of Paul, others Apollos, others Cephas. When addressing this he asked, "Are we not all of Christ?" Meaning just because it was the message of Paul or Apollos that lead someone to Christ, that doesn't mean they are a follower of Paul or Apollos.

In 2 Peter, Peter writes that some of things Paul writes about are hard to understand and some folks twist them like they do other scriptures.

In thinking about this I realized that a lot of division we have amongst ourselves does come from Paul's writings.

Part of the error within some dispensational thought, for example, is that Paul preached a separate Gospel of Grace for the gentiles.

The Calvinist idea of election and predestination is heavily based on the book of Romans.

Sola Fide from Galatians.

The Continuist vs Cessationist debate comes from opposing views of 1 Corinthians.

The rapture from Thessalonians...

I can go on...but I wonder what it is about Paul's letters that have caused so much division? What is it about them that makes them hard to understand? Does it just seem like there's more division based on his teachings because he wrote the majority of the NT?

I have wondered if we didn't have Paul's epistles in the Bible if we would be more unified. Not that I'm saying we should disregard them...because there is much truth to be found in his words...nor do I think that Paul is to blame, but our interpretations of what he said...but is there a remedy?

I think the misunderstandings are probably because He was so in tune with the Holy Spirit, that we need the Holy Spirit to discern all the Truth from them. The problem with differing doctrines and factions today, is because man tend to read Scripture in their own understanding. We aren't supposed to separate all of it, or just focus on one book, one chapter, one passage on its own, but see the whole picture from the whole Bible.
Just my opinion.

 

[david.d]

In a Baptist setting, I could see them being skipped because they would be too controversial, given the Calvinist/Arminian plurality inherent in most Baptist churches.

They were skipped by more than just Baptists, but I agree. Primitive Baptists embrace predestination. Calvin didn't invent predestination.

 

[throughfierytrial]

..true, TFT,
but there appeared to be such a deep Split, that it even divided Paul and Peter....which should be completely Impossible..

so deep is that split,
that He tells that 'but in the end-time, the two staffs will be made as 1 again' (Ezekiel) , between the house of Juda (Judahites, not 'jews') and Israel (10 tribes)

question is, what is so deep split-

answer can be,
that israel (10 tribes) represented "fallen adamites, in this world",
while judahites (the 2 southern kingdom) represented "Gods original creation"

..if you think about it , it may be Valid :
compare the event of the pregnant Mary and Elisabeth ;
the latter carried John, representing ús, in this fallen state ;
Mary carrying Him - our original state

.......

Peter had gone astray...back to practicing the LAW in some ways...Paul straightened him out (Galations). Is that what you are referring to? That was a rebuking and not a split. It shouldn't be, the need for rebuking, but sin crept in on Peter's part. The rebuking is good and necessary...we are all told to rebuke our brothers and sisters.
NO, not so deep, as you express, again, just a rebuke, and Ezekiel is referring to the bringing together of all believers under Christ, not Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel who went astray. All believers are not the true Israel...
Galations 3:26-29:
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Deadworm]

Paul was disciple by Barnabas and the church of Antioch, which was the first great missionary base for the spread of Christianity to the Gentiles. As such, it was bastion of orthodoxy with strong connections to the Jerusalem church. In Galatians 1-2, Paul makes it clear that he allowed his version of the Gospel to be checked out by Peter, James, and John, adding that they approved his teaching as it is. So Paul's teaching has the mandate of the Jerusalem church.

The problem is that competing Jewish Christian and Gentile missionaries with modified versions of the Gospel stirred up trouble in churches founded by Paul, and Paul's epistles are written in response to the resulting schisms. Because Paul founded the churches he addresses (except for Romans), the divisions arise from outside teachers, not from Paul. In fact, we should be grateful for these schisms because they insipre Paul to write epistles that he would otherwise not have written. So what is at stake here is the role of these schisms in given us half our NT!

 

[The Times]

In 1 Corinthians Paul speaks about divisions in the Church. How some were saying they were of Paul, others Apollos, others Cephas. When addressing this he asked, "Are we not all of Christ?" Meaning just because it was the message of Paul or Apollos that lead someone to Christ, that doesn't mean they are a follower of Paul or Apollos.

In 2 Peter, Peter writes that some of things Paul writes about are hard to understand and some folks twist them like they do other scriptures.

In thinking about this I realized that a lot of division we have amongst ourselves does come from Paul's writings.

Part of the error within some dispensational thought, for example, is that Paul preached a separate Gospel of Grace for the gentiles.

The Calvinist idea of election and predestination is heavily based on the book of Romans.

Sola Fide from Galatians.

The Continuist vs Cessationist debate comes from opposing views of 1 Corinthians.

The rapture from Thessalonians...

I can go on...but I wonder what it is about Paul's letters that have caused so much division? What is it about them that makes them hard to understand? Does it just seem like there's more division based on his teachings because he wrote the majority of the NT?

I have wondered if we didn't have Paul's epistles in the Bible if we would be more unified. Not that I'm saying we should disregard them...because there is much truth to be found in his words...nor do I think that Paul is to blame, but our interpretations of what he said...but is there a remedy?

Divisions are not because of Paul and are not because of how people are interpreting what Paul had written.

The one thing that you have not considered is that these differences of doctrine within different denominations, in my opinion are a defensive mechanism to safe guard the Christian faith from being infiltrated from within by the enemy. Enemies efforts to sabotage the Christian faith by trying to infiltrare and to subjugate Christianity to a universal world view within the context of a unitarian belief, is immensely difficult, without resorting to violance.

The enemy must conscript as many denominations within an ecumenical global agenda, to then demonize those who do not join them, by labeling them fundamentalists and then start to persecute them through violent means.

History attests to this, from the 1st century apostolic Jewish church that was ostracized and labelled fundamentalists and revolutionaries, to then make legislation to punitively make inquisitions by use of violance. The RCC took on that role of persecutor, when labeling those not obedient to their pontiff as heretical fundamentalist, who deserve to be punished even to the point of death.

Ecumenical worldly unity brings divisiveness and persecution to the body of Christ. That is why I believe that the schisms were good for Christianity and served to safe guard the faith from the enemy. If it was a worldly united religious institution, then the enemy can rewrite the history books, with the new generations none the wiser and oblivious to the truth, because they will be born into a lie.

When considering that Christianity is strong in diversity as splinter groups, one can see that Paul is instrumental in bringing unity to the body of Christ through accountability to the others members who continually are objecting. Imagine if only one pontiff called the shots, that would mean that this figure is like god on earth who has no accountability and no one to expose his lies and deceit.

The 7 day adventists amongst others are revolutionary swords of Christ to expose myths and lies coming from a universal worldly religious institution that circumvents the ways and truth of Christ.

I think that Jesus used Paul to strategically place different Christian splinter cells to hold accountable and to expose the lies of the enemy.

The enemy can never be in all denominations and seeks to globally unify Christianity under the one umbrella so to subjugate the members to one authority.

I therefore like Paul and encourage more diversity within Christianity and if that means further divisions into more splinter cell home church communities, so be it.

There will come a time simular to the times of the inquisitions that Christianity needs to go underground and then these splinter cells will unite and work together to topple the universal global religious system of the Antichrist.

What you call divisions, I call a calculated timeless unity projected into the future to survive the onslaught of the enemy that does not sleep and works continuously to dethrone Jesus Christ from his body of believers and to replace him with an antichrist.

 

[com7fy8]

I'm not rejecting Paul's writings just pondering why there are so many different, and contradictory, beliefs surrounding them.

Others have given good answers about this.

I would add that it is possible that people differ because what Paul means goes against what they want "and how they want things to be".

Also, if you have been in a communication or two of a number of people, it might be you have seen how two people, even good friends, can get very different ideas about what you or someone else means by what he or she has said. We can just be unique in how we understand the same thing.

Look at what happens if you show a few people the same cloud formation and ask each one to tell us what he or she sees

Even plain things can be seen differently.

I greatly benefit from how humble and kind and gently caring people can feed me their different takes of a same scripture. They see it very differently, but every perception helps to feed me to appreciate God and gain in how to love. They are not only trying to push their conclusions, but they are sharing caring understanding. I now see more how God's love has His love meaning, of each scripture

So, if people are in their own intelligences, and their own egos and agendas, also with each one's own experiences . . . they can get to gobbling and squabbling. And ones have been taught by someone they trust and admire; so, they can be in denial that what such a great person told them could be wrong or ignorant. So, in their arguing, they could be trying to defend someone who is an idol for them. Look at how rough and vicious people can become if you disagree with their religion which represents their family's reputation and credibility.

But people all in love can help to bring good things together with each other, of what is much more complicated than putting pieces of a puzzle together

 

[Neogaia777]

In 1 Corinthians Paul speaks about divisions in the Church. How some were saying they were of Paul, others Apollos, others Cephas. When addressing this he asked, "Are we not all of Christ?" Meaning just because it was the message of Paul or Apollos that lead someone to Christ, that doesn't mean they are a follower of Paul or Apollos.

In 2 Peter, Peter writes that some of things Paul writes about are hard to understand and some folks twist them like they do other scriptures.

In thinking about this I realized that a lot of division we have amongst ourselves does come from Paul's writings.

Part of the error within some dispensational thought, for example, is that Paul preached a separate Gospel of Grace for the gentiles.

The Calvinist idea of election and predestination is heavily based on the book of Romans.

Sola Fide from Galatians.

The Continuist vs Cessationist debate comes from opposing views of 1 Corinthians.

The rapture from Thessalonians...

I can go on...but I wonder what it is about Paul's letters that have caused so much division? What is it about them that makes them hard to understand? Does it just seem like there's more division based on his teachings because he wrote the majority of the NT?

I have wondered if we didn't have Paul's epistles in the Bible if we would be more unified. Not that I'm saying we should disregard them...because there is much truth to be found in his words...nor do I think that Paul is to blame, but our interpretations of what he said...but is there a remedy?

The idea of predestination comes from the lack of understanding of the difference between God, the Father, and God, the Son...

Sola Fide or justification by faith alone is right and sound... Can you tell me the nature of the disagreement on it, If it is not by faith that we are justified, then how are we justified...?

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still very much alive and present, but, we have "little faith" to access them today...

The rapture also comes from Jesus teachings, but it still mysterious and vague as to how, when, what will it be like (and) when it happens...

I also believe that Paul is not in error or to blame, but our misinterpretation that is...

More than likely without Paul's teachings Christianity may not have survived...

We need to re-examine our interpretations of Paul's writings/teachings...

God Bless!

 

[com7fy8]

What you call divisions, I call a calculated timeless unity projected into the future to survive the onslaught of the enemy that does not sleep and works continuously to dethrone Jesus Christ from his body of believers and to replace him with an antichrist.

Well, Paul in Corinthians clearly says to speak the same thing. And this is possible with God.

But I now understand that real unity comes with being gentle and humble in Jesus and obeying how our Heavenly Father rules us with His own peace in our hearts > Colossians 3:15. God Himself is ruling us "in one body", coordinating all who are obeying how He rules us as one . . . already. I trust that this does not show outwardly as a certain publicly reputed group. How He rules us is deeper and better than worldly humans can see

 

[The Times]

Well, Paul in Corinthians clearly says to speak the same thing. And this is possible with God.

But I now understand that real unity comes with being gentle and humble in Jesus and obeying how our Heavenly Father rules us with His own peace in our hearts > Colossians 3:15. God Himself is ruling us "in one body", coordinating all who are obeying how He rules us as one . . . already. I trust that this does not show outwardly as a certain publicly reputed group. How He rules us is deeper and better than worldly humans can see

Absolutely!

How he has organised and restructured his Church throughout the ages is amazing.

 

[AJTruth]

Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth
Source: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Greek orthotomeo - English dividing - Strongs 3718:
"to cut straight" is found in 2 Tim 2:15 "rightly dividing,"

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, """rightly dividing the word of truth""".

(So, in 2 Timothy 2:15, the Greek word for dividing is the verb orthotomeo. So, to rightly divide, we are to cut a straight line.)

Question: Where do we cut the straight dividing line in the word of truth?

Answer: The Cross

Pre-Cross: The Gospel of the Kingdom was a collevtive message for God's chosen people = The Nation Of Israel Only

Luke 16:16 Jesus said, The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached

The Gospel of the Kingdom message begins with John the Baptist Matt 3:2-6 & Mk 1:4-5

After John's arrest, Jesus himself takes up the kingdon message. Matt 4:12-17

Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and """preaching the gospel of the kingdom""", and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

This ALL ISRAELIE KINGDOM MESSAGE, required belief/faith that Jesus was the Messiah, the promised King of Israel (I.E. gospel of the kingdom)

Pre-Cross Nation of Israel, kingdom message: Repent = change their current course from breaking covenant (Jer 31:32) & return to God. Then be washed in flowing water for the symbolic removal of sin. In preperation for a new covenant, Jer 31:31)

This ALL JEWISH KINGDOM MESSAGE: Was a """BLOODLESS""" message & required faith & works.

Why works? Because, while Messiah is alive. The old Mosaic law covenant is still in effect.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(The New Testament/Covenant doesn't begin until after Christ dies!)

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost

51 Behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(The old covenant/testament ends right here!)

It's not until a sinless Christs; sacrificial sin atoning death & resurrection (Gods stamp of acceptance/approval). Finishes the work for mankinds redemption. PAYING IN FULL, the laws requirments for the wage of sin, DEATH

Post-Cross: The Gospel of Grace thru faith is an indivdually targeted message. Available to ALL, Jew or GENTILE

The New Testament/Covenant is: Cut in Christ's sacrificial """BLOOD""" offering that removes sin (Eph 1:7, Rev 1:5)

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption """through his blood""" the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and """washed us from our sins in his own blood""".

The RISEN Christ chooses Paul
Acts 26:17 Jesus says to Paul; I Delivered thee from the Jews, & "Gentiles, to whom now I send thee" The Heavenly Risen Lord Himself, appoints Paul Apostle & sends him to the Gentiles

Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the ages began."
(This revelation of the mystery which was given to Paul. Which was kept secret since the ages began)

I Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul’s gospel was that a sinless Christ died for our sins, was buried & rose from the dead

Not the kingdom message of repentance and baptism. The grace message of faith in the finished sin atoning redemptive work of Jesus the Christ.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the
word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(PAUL THE STEWARDSHIP ADMINISTER TO GENTILES TO FULFILL GODS WORD RELATING TO THE CHURCH AS THE BODY OF CHRIST)

The gospel of the kingdom message. Isnt applicable for the Church today. Maranatha

 

[AJTruth]

I actually agree with him. If you look at Paul's commission it states, "go to the kings and gentiles and the children of Israel." Notice the two bold "and"(s) there? The first is kai, the word for "and." The second is "te," which is the word for both or even also. And gentiles (ethnos) is also nations. So... a retranslation... "go to the kings and nations both the children of Israel." If you place your cursor here over Genesis 35:11 you'll see Jacob's seed prophesied as, "nations and kings" which are the "children of Israel" (Jacob).

Couple that with messiah saying, "I have not been sent BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and him also sending his disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... then that is where the weight of his mission was. (I believe)

Meet Paul the gentile Apostle

Paul’s writes 13 books to the Gentiles from Romans to Philemon. This is the part of the Bible that a new believer should read first.

Paul chosen by the Risen Lord:
Acts 25:17 Jesus said; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Gal 2:7 contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to """my gospel""" and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to """my gospel"""

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Paul the gentile Apostle, Example, Prisoner, Minister, Leader & Our Pattern

Romans 11: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the """apostle""" of the Gentiles,

2 Thes 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an """ensample""" unto you to follow us.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the """prisoner""" of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Rom 15:16 That I should be the """minister""" of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor 11:1 Be ye """followers of me""" even as I also am of Christ.

1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a """pattern""" to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Col 1:
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,

1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God

2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

Gal 1aul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope

2 Tim 1aul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ

Eph 3:
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Gal 3:
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

All of Paul's writings are to the church/body of Christ. Salvation comes by grace thru faith & faith alone. If there seems to be a contradiction in Scripture, see if the verse is under Grace or Law as the two won't mix.

 

[Ken Rank]

If there seems to be a contradiction in Scripture, see if the verse is under Grace or Law as the two won't mix.

Here is an example of context lost. How can you be "under" grace? Is it a roof you stand under? An umbrella looking thing? No... it is an idiomatic phrase. Well, so is "under the law." These two phases paint a simple picture that starts in Genesis... man was not created to die.. he sinned... and the penalty is death. So, we are born "under the law" which is to say GUILTY and worthy of death. But through the work of Yeshua, we are not "under grace" which is to say, "declared innocent."

By the way, if the law is that declares we fall short and need grace... then if you remove the law you remove the need for grace. The two are not mutually exclusive, they coexist quite nicely.

 

[Saint Nod]

Big Drew,
What a wonderful question... one I ask myself often. Of course, the simple answer is that our different life experiences, our different cultures etc rightly or wrongly lead us to how we interpret the scriptures... again, rightly or wrongly interpret!
What surprises me is how we as a church get anything done at all for the kingdom... but you know, coming from a missionary perspective it is always best to stick to the overall essentials of the Gospel and remember that in time the Holy Spirit will bring us to an understanding ... John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"
Still, all the same, I too enjoy the intellectual challenge of working out just what Paul is saying... oops, did I say intellectual?...

 

[FireDragon76]

The New Perspective on Paul is interesting stuff to interact with, and worth looking into. It really does a fair job of critiquing a certain evangelical approach to Paul that zeroes in on the legal aspects of salvation, and comes away with a more or less antinomian and individualistic reading. The only folks that seem seriously challenged by it are Baptists or similar churches that are not committed to any kind of sacramentalism or corporate identity. Everybody else can make a slight pivot and realize that Paul sees salvation in a more multifaceted way, than simply God applying the merits of Christ to us and forgiving us.

 

[AJTruth]

Here is an example of context lost. How can you be "under" grace? Is it a roof you stand under? An umbrella looking thing? No... it is an idiomatic phrase. Well, so is "under the law." These two phases paint a simple picture that starts in Genesis... man was not created to die.. he sinned... and the penalty is death. So, we are born "under the law" which is to say GUILTY and worthy of death. But through the work of Yeshua, we are not "under grace" which is to say, "declared innocent."

By the way, if the law is that declares we fall short and need grace... then if you remove the law you remove the need for grace. The two are not mutually exclusive, they coexist quite nicely.

JESUS CAME TO FULFIL THE LAW:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(ANYONE CLAIMING THE LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT. IS CLAIMING MESSIAH FAILED AT HIS MISSION!)

WILL OF THE FATHER:
Matt 7:21 Jesus said; Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; """"but he that doeth the will of my Father"""" which is in heaven.

HOW WE DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER:
John 6:40 Jesus said; This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which """seeth the Son, and believeth on him""", may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(THE WILL OF THE FATHER IS: PLACE YOU FAITH IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(IF YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SALVATION BY YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS OR IN LAW KEEPING. YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE!)

 

[Big Drew]

The New Perspective on Paul is interesting stuff to interact with, and worth looking into. It really does a fair job of critiquing a certain evangelical approach to Paul that zeroes in on the legal aspects of salvation, and comes away with a more or less antinomian and individualistic reading. The only folks that seem seriously challenged by it are Baptists or similar churches that are not committed to any kind of sacramentalism or corporate identity. Everybody else can make a slight pivot and realize that Paul sees salvation in a more multifaceted way, than simply God applying the merits of Christ to us and forgiving us.

If I'm not mistaken, N.T. Wright is a theologian that falls into this "New Perspective" camp...if I'm correct on that, I haven't really found much in Wright's theology that I disagree with...listening to some of his podcasts and reading some of his books is what made me realize I needed to try to place myself back in the 1st century as much as possible, by studying the history of the time and place, to be able to fully grasp the teachings of the New Testament...though, admittedly, that's a lot easier said than done.

 

[Big Drew]

Big Drew,
What a wonderful question... one I ask myself often. Of course, the simple answer is that our different life experiences, our different cultures etc rightly or wrongly lead us to how we interpret the scriptures... again, rightly or wrongly interpret!
What surprises me is how we as a church get anything done at all for the kingdom... but you know, coming from a missionary perspective it is always best to stick to the overall essentials of the Gospel and remember that in time the Holy Spirit will bring us to an understanding ... John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"
Still, all the same, I too enjoy the intellectual challenge of working out just what Paul is saying... oops, did I say intellectual?...

I love it when churches can agree to disagree and put their differences aside in order to minister together. A Pentecostal church I used to be a member of would often join together with a Methodist and a Baptist church to minister in the park across from the housing projects in our town...no need to argue when we're showing the love of Christ to the world.

 

[Ken Rank]

JESUS CAME TO FULFIL THE LAW:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(ANYONE CLAIMING THE LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT. IS CLAIMING MESSIAH FAILED AT HIS MISSION!)

WILL OF THE FATHER:
Matt 7:21 Jesus said; Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; """"but he that doeth the will of my Father"""" which is in heaven.

HOW WE DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER:
John 6:40 Jesus said; This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which """seeth the Son, and believeth on him""", may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(THE WILL OF THE FATHER IS: PLACE YOU FAITH IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(IF YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SALVATION BY YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS OR IN LAW KEEPING. YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE!)

You don't have TO YELL... I can read. I held your same view, I don't anymore. That doesn't mean I believe we work for salvation, I don't believe that... but I also don't believe something God called eternal isn't eternal. We won't convince each other and I don't desire to debate this. Just follow him as you are convinced and one day we'll both surely stand corrected for many things. Blessings.

 

[Neogaia777]

Here is an example of context lost. How can you be "under" grace? Is it a roof you stand under? An umbrella looking thing? No... it is an idiomatic phrase. Well, so is "under the law." These two phases paint a simple picture that starts in Genesis... man was not created to die.. he sinned... and the penalty is death. So, we are born "under the law" which is to say GUILTY and worthy of death. But through the work of Yeshua, we are not "under grace" which is to say, "declared innocent."

By the way, if the law is that declares we fall short and need grace... then if you remove the law you remove the need for grace. The two are not mutually exclusive, they coexist quite nicely.

Under means submitted to and accepting the authority of judgment of...

Under law, we are guilty as hell, under Grace, we are innocent as babes...

You figure it out... I'll give you a clue, the law must of necessity come first, for the latter to apply and be fully realized so as to take and have effect...

God Bless!