Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[1stcenturylady]

Well I’m glad we are in agreement even if it is short lived. Lol

LOL, I think our "agreement" is to disagree about how forgiveness happens for future willful sins. To me the phrase, past, present and future sins, is saying, as you commit them, they are forgiven. I can't agree to that, because I don't see any scripture supporting that. However I DO believe present and future UNINTENTIONAL sins we may commit while actually walking in the light ARE forgiven. To me, 2 Peter 1:9 says our PAST/OLD sins are cleansed, not past, present and future sin, and then we are given the power of the Spirit to not commit any more willful sins, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-2, and 15-16, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:2. One thing you and I will have to agree to disagree on is about the willfulness of the sins we are talking about. I don't commit willful sins, but I've had 70 years to grow into that state. But, I'm not sinless by any means. There are sins I'm sure I commit having to do with doubt. Otherwise, I would see more miracles and walk in health. I've had healings in the past, but not 100%, so there is a percentage of doubt. I know there are things I could do, like more housework so I could have Bible Studies in my own home, but I give up when the pain gets too bad. So don't think I believe I'm sinless or perfect like you've said in the past. I don't at all. I just know through ignoring the signs God was giving me to not marry my husband when I had the chance, then spending 13 years of abuse, that when I finally yielded everything to God and told Him that even if my husband got so bad he would kill me, I wouldn't sin and get a divorce. I would obey God, even if it killed me. It was then that he divorced me, to marry someone else, the wife of his best friend. I was free, and still alive. It is true, "learning obedience through suffering." "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing." Now, even when I was in a car accident, I praised God that He was in control, and why it happened was for my good. I don't know how many more trials I have to go through to be perfect, but I praise God for them. I just want to please Him.

 

[JIMINZ]

Latter: second sentence in the verse

.
I know where it is in relation to your Translation which isn't in the KJV. therefore define it for me, and show what latter is referring to in the text.

 

[1stcenturylady]

.
I know where it is in relation to your Translation which isn't in the KJV. therefore define it for me, and show what latter is referring to in the text.

The dishonorable vessel didn't have to stay that way.

 

[JIMINZ]

To me, 2 Peter 1:9 says our PAST/OLD sins are cleansed, not past, present and future sin, and then we are given the power of the Spirit to not commit any more willful sins,

.
This verse does not speak of Willful sin?

The only places where Willful sin is mentioned, is in
Heb 6 and 10

 

[JIMINZ]

The dishonorable vessel didn't have to stay that way.

.
2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.


According to your belief as I understand it, the Vessel made of Wood or Earth, can Cleans Himself from what type of Vessel he is, and thereby Cleansing Himself, he becomes a Vessel of Gold or Silver,
Is this understanding correct?

How does this Dishonorable Vessel accomplish this Cleansing of Himself, how is this Vessel able to Change Himself into an Honorable Vessel?

What would you say, would be the difference between the Gold and the Silver vessel in relation to the one Cleansing Himself?

I just do not see, how someone is able to accomplish the Cleansing of Himself.


My counter to you belief is.
Couldn't it possibly be, that these verses below, are what Paul was referencing with the word (Latter)?

2Ti 2:14
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2Ti 2:16-18
16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[SBC]

Are you talking to me? When did my old body testify of me now? You are not making any sense again.

Have you testified in this thread your are saved and born again AND testified you still sin?

One testimony is of your spirit.
One testimony is of your natural self.

Yet you are one, with conflicting testimony.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ToBeLoved]

LOL, I think our "agreement" is to disagree about how forgiveness happens for future willful sins. To me the phrase, past, present and future sins, is saying, as you commit them, they are forgiven. I can't agree to that, because I don't see any scripture supporting that. However I DO believe present and future UNINTENTIONAL sins we may commit while actually walking in the light ARE forgiven. To me, 2 Peter 1:9 says our PAST/OLD sins are cleansed, not past, present and future sin, and then we are given the power of the Spirit to not commit any more willful sins, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-2, and 15-16, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:2. One thing you and I will have to agree to disagree on is about the willfulness of the sins we are talking about. I don't commit willful sins, but I've had 70 years to grow into that state. But, I'm not sinless by any means. There are sins I'm sure I commit having to do with doubt. Otherwise, I would see more miracles and walk in health. I've had healings in the past, but not 100%, so there is a percentage of doubt. I know there are things I could do, like more housework so I could have Bible Studies in my own home, but I give up when the pain gets too bad. So don't think I believe I'm sinless or perfect like you've said in the past. I don't at all. I just know through ignoring the signs God was giving me to not marry my husband when I had the chance, then spending 13 years of abuse, that when I finally yielded everything to God and told Him that even if my husband got so bad he would kill me, I wouldn't sin and get a divorce. I would obey God, even if it killed me. It was then that he divorced me, to marry someone else, the wife of his best friend. I was free, and still alive. It is true, "learning obedience through suffering." "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing." Now, even when I was in a car accident, I praised God that He was in control, and why it happened was for my good. I don't know how many more trials I have to go through to be perfect, but I praise God for them. I just want to please Him.

You haven’t said that you do not sin in this thread?

Everyone that makes that argument comes up with a willful vs non willful sin or some variation to give themselves a net.

The fact is that the Bible talks about sin. God is Holy and any sin is sin. And we all repent for sins we don’t realize we do, but to work that into sin theology does not recognize that any sin against God’s Holiness is sin. And that is how God defines it.

 

[Tayla]

I cannot sin, because I am born of God and His seed resides within me.

We should distinguish between serious mortal sin and lesser venial sin.

Our souls in the spiritual realm are tangled up with both God's Spirit and the powers of darkness; that is the human condition. Only in the new heavens and new earth will the powers of darkness be gone.

 

[Tayla]

We are sinners in terms of we are not yet perfected until we receive the crown of life.

Being a sinner means, I think, we actively sin. Perhaps we don't commit serious mortal sins, and in that sense, I suppose, we are perfect.

 

[Tayla]

My assumption for people who think that we should not think ourselves sinners, when we do sin, must be that somehow the sin is not charged against us or held to our account

Yes. I think some want to think of themselves as Christ sees them, as they will be in the new heavens and new earth. Seems like salesmanship to me; presenting a product as more than it is, ignoring its defects and unsuitability, just to make the sale.

 

[1stcenturylady]

.
This verse does not speak of Willful sin?

The only places where Willful sin is mentioned, is in
Heb 6 and 10

I know that. We must take them into consideration when speaking of sin. It is the context of all scripture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Have you testified in this thread your are saved and born again AND testified you still sin?

One testimony is of your spirit.
One testimony is of your natural self.

Yet you are one, with conflicting testimony.

God Bless,
SBC

I do not commit willful sin. Do you?

 

[1stcenturylady]

You haven’t said that you do not sin in this thread?

Everyone that makes that argument comes up with a willful vs non willful sin or some variation to give themselves a net.

The fact is that the Bible talks about sin. God is Holy and any sin is sin. And we all repent for sins we don’t realize we do, but to work that into sin theology does not recognize that any sin against God’s Holiness is sin. And that is how God defines it.

I have consistently said I do not commit willful sins in all threads.

I used to believe that before I studied how God views sin. He's the one that matters. You believe sin is sin, He doesn't.

There are even sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death.

 

[SBC]

LOL, I think our "agreement" is to disagree about how forgiveness happens for future willful sins. To me the phrase, past, present and future sins, is saying, as you commit them, they are forgiven. I can't agree to that, because I don't see any scripture supporting that. However I DO believe present and future UNINTENTIONAL sins we may commit while actually walking in the light ARE forgiven.

Between you and I ~
I believe an unsaved, un born again men -
IS dead, by and because of in his sins and trespasses.

ONLY God can forgive Sin - and
Men and God can forgive Trespasses.

I believe SIN is the transgression THAT is personally AGAINST GOD.
naturally born - is Against God
doesn't believe - is Against God
corrupts his soul - is Against God
no faith - is Against God
doesn't know God - is Against God
no spiritual connection to God - is Against God

These are the THINGS, a man WHO begins learning and believing are AGAINST God,
ARE the THINGS, the SINS AGAINST God, that God FORGIVES, when a man repents and submits to God.

(also included in that forgiveness, IS mans TRESPASSES against other men)

Once FORGIVEN - God does the restoring, changing, fixing, so that nothing whatsoever, of the man can ever again STAND AGAINST God, which WAS Sin Against God, is forgiven, and shall be forever, forgiven, covered, forgotten SIN, and the man shall NEVER again be ABLE to SIN.

Now about the TRANSGRESSIONS of men TRESPASSING AGAINST men?
Sure thing ~ happens all the time - intentionally and unintentionally.

And? Run and whine to God about it? Beg his forgiveness? pfft, no.
Go to the person you trespassed Against, ask "their" forgiveness!
And? What if a man trespasses Against you?
He asks you for forgiveness....Give it to him.
He doesn't ask you for forgiveness.....Forgive him anyway.
And? Why?
Because all trespasses of men against men, whom men forgive, so too has God forgiven that forgiving mans own trespasses.

Do you have to run to God and tell him about it? No. It's a given He knows all things, and has already FORE-TOLD, all trespasses a man forgives, his own trespasses against men ARE forgiven.

So, WHEN Scripture teaches, only God forgives SIN, and a man IS Forgiven his SIN AGAINST GOD, and God restores and changes the man; that the man CAN NEVER AGAIN STAND AGAINST GOD - it is to say, the man CAN SIN MORE. The man CAN NOT SIN, He can NOT EVER again Stand Against God. Future SIN of that man IS NOT POSSIBLE!

Transgressions of Trespassing of men against men? Yes.

So why is Scripture "seemingly" confusing, calling SIN and TRESPASSING the same thing?

It started in the BEGINNING, when men first learned about SIN being against God.
Then teaching men (Moses' laws) of men against God, against men; every violation was called a SIN.

The "doing" good, was known, to "do" as God taught was "doing" right.
The word "sin" was introduced, as the word, of NOT doing good or right.

Gen 4
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

Then the word "trespass" was introduced.

Gen 31
[36] And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?

Forward through the OT of laws, between man and God, and between men and men; Sin and Trespass, were words used interchangeably, sometimes for the same things, sometimes not.

Forward from the beginning, THRU, 4,000 years, of tradition and man needing Gods forgiveness of SIN against God and TRESPASSES against men....God provided times, dates, festivals, dinners, temples, alters, etc. that men could work and do, to have places and things specific to BE forgiven their Sins against God and Trespasses against men.

Jesus arrives - The Word of God in the FLESH. Having many things to accomplish -
Fulfilling prophecy, fulfilling mans laws, teaching by example, showing, among other thing....AND revealing Wisdom and Understanding according to God.

Inanutshell and brief -

Every thing OF a man NOT in belief - IS AGAINST GOD, thus that, man is IN SIN and the man COMMITS SIN.

He may ALSO trespass AGAINST other men.

HOWEVER - every thing of a man IN belief, SAVED, BORN AGAIN, IS NEVER again AGAINST GOD. Such a man CAN NOT SIN, can never again, not believe, never again, stand Against God.

Trespass against other men? Yes. Is that a SIN? No. It is a transgression of a Trespass against a man.

What you are calling - "wilful sin" - IS what the unbelieving do. They willfully choose to stand against God. A saved and born again man, can never stand against God, He can not sin.

Think about it - what you think and do against men - is what you are calling "sin". It isn't. It is trespassing against men. It is the man you trespass against you are told to forgive.

Since it is revealed ONLY God can forgive SIN; then you should have discovered, you can not SIN against men, nor could a man forgive you of a sin against him. And tells you to go ask men, and give men forgiveness. Of what? Trespasses.

Does the NT, still mix the traditions of men, calling Sin and Trespass the same thing?
Sure. Tradition of 4,000 years, didn't disappear overnight, nor does "understanding" according to God, come to a man overnight.

However there is enough revealed in Scripture for one to realize the difference between SIN being man against God, and TRESPASSES being man against man.

And when a man IS reconciled unto God, become born of God, the man NO LONGER CAN SIN. He IS freed from SIN. He can not SIN. He IS in standing WITH the Lord forever.

YOU WERE dead, IN trespasses and sin, and forgiven, and can SIN no more.
And any future Trespasses - YOU forgive, and deal with.

Eph 2
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Matt 6
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mark 2
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Luke 5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

1 John 3
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A man "born of God", CAN NOT SIN. He can not stand against God.
God KEEPS the man faithful to God FOREVER, BY HIS POWER.

Can the same man TRESPASS against other men? Absolutely. It is a SIN? No.

All the talking about wilful sin, oops sin, is simply men without understanding of the difference between SIN is Against God, and TRESPASSES are Against Men.

Stick with the facts revealed. Not so much what men KNEW, but rather the UNDERSTANDING of the knowledge revealed.

And keep in mind, OT men, even early NT men, and many today, ARE without "understanding" of the knowledge of the Scriptures.

Understanding "according" to Gods understanding; IS a GIFT, from God TO, men who have become sons of God........AND whom such men, continuously seek , knock, call out, ask God to give them His Wisdom and His Understanding. God is faithful, He will give, to those who seek.

I just want to please Him.

Continue reading and ASK HIM, that you may understand the Scriptures according to His Wisdom and Understanding. That is Gods WILL, that his servants serve God on His behalf, according to His wisdom and Understanding.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

I do not commit willful sin. Do you?

I sin no more, any kind of sin.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did Paul consider himself a "sinner"?, How many of which disciples/apostles think of themselves as sinners...? Are we supposed to think of ourselves or consider ourselves as sinners...? Even after we say we are saved...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Paul was a sinner in respect of him not perfectly obeying the entire law of God, as we all are in that respect. But we normally associate the word sinner with people who choose to live a sinfull lifestyle. Paul the Christian did not choose that.
Just my small contribution!

 

[GenemZ]

I do not commit willful sin. Do you?

But you can commit a willful sin... and then later regret it. Regretting it later does not mean it was not willful at the time. The heart is deceitful.

The whole issue in our Christian way of life is to be always growing in grace and knowledge.. and not get bogged down on this self preoccupation sin issue as so many have been.

Satan wants us to become preoccupied with our self. Getting us thinking about how we are sinless is one way to get us thinking (wrongly) that we are pleasing God.

God wants us to become occupied with Christ. Not self. Its a neat trick when someone is made self conscious in the name of wanting to please Christ.

The Lord's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. No amount of preoccupation with self and making sure we are not sinning can ever gain us the knowledge we need to become transformed out of being preoccupied with our selves.

Just accept 1 John 1:9... and keep moving forward in gaining more and more depth of understanding that can only come by the Filling of The Spirit! Naming out sins when we see one is the way to keep growing in grace...

Growing in grace and knowledge takes finding an excellent pastor-teacher to accomplish. For only such a teacher can teach us what we can not know when left to our own thinking. That includes the many pastors who follow a format designed to human preference, who teach to say things designed to please the people listening to him..

Pray in Jesus name for an excellent pastor teacher who can teach what we need to know... not what we want to know... and you may be in for a surprise! For we can not know what we need to know when His thoughts are not our thoughts!

"But continuously grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever!
Amen."​

2 Peter 3:18

 

[PeaceByJesus]

.
Give it a break, it's how a Believer gets to the point of not sinning that you don't comprehend.

You don't even understand what it means why we do not sin.

Really? So are we do assume that you have arrived at the stage in which you do not sin, but keep the command to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, without fail day by day? How long as it been since you achieved this status, and what will be the end of penitent believers who over practice righteousness but never attain to the sinless level?

Straight answers please: I do not intend to read all your sophistry.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I sin no more, any kind of sin.
God Bless, SBC

Then I will ask you the same question as the : So are we do assume that you have arrived at the stage in which you do not sin, but keep the command to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, without fail day by day? How long as it been since you achieved this status, and what will be the end of penitent believers who over practice righteousness but never attain to the sinless level?

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Trespass against other men? Yes. Is that a SIN? No. It is a transgression of a Trespass against a man....

YOU WERE dead, IN trespasses and sin, and forgiven, and can SIN no more.
And any future Trespasses - YOU forgive, and deal with....

A man "born of God", CAN NOT SIN. He can not stand against God.
God KEEPS the man faithful to God FOREVER, BY HIS POWER.

Can the same man TRESPASS against other men? Absolutely. It is a SIN? No.

All the talking about wilful sin, oops sin, is simply men without understanding of the difference between SIN is Against God, and TRESPASSES are Against Men.
God Bless,SBC

That sir is rank unScriptural heresy. Sin by definition is "the transgression of the law," (1 John 3:4) which, as seen in the 10 commandments themselves, deals with both offenses directly against God, as well as against men. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

And which is the very thing John himself refers to in the same chapter as "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" (which refers to what one characteristically "doeth") as an example of what sin is:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [see 334]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:9-15)

Thus rather than being able to fail to love his brother as himself yet say he has kept the faith, "if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Timothy 5:8)

The contrast John sets forth is btwn the believer who practices righteousness (which includes repentance) versus the wicked who practice sin, with how one treats others being what manifests sin. But according to your perverse definition, if a believer murders his brother than he has not sinned!

Among others, Godly Joseph reproves you saying when tempted by the seductress, Potiphar's wife,

There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness [adultery], and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9)

Likewise David in doing what Joseph would not:

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. (2 Samuel 12:13)

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. (Psalms 51:4)

And consistent with this, the Law saith,

If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the Lord, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour...Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away...(Leviticus 6:2,4)

And in the NT, to sin against the brethren is to sin against Christ:
But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:12)

Understanding "according" to Gods understanding; IS a GIFT, from God TO, men who have become sons of God........AND whom such men, continuously seek , knock, call out, ask God to give them His Wisdom and His Understanding. God is faithful, He will give, to those who seek.

Meaning that what Scripture clearly teaches can be denied under the premise of esoteric elitism, with the Antinomianism that John actually countered.