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Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

JIMINZ

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This post is for anyone who opposes the position of, Cannot Sin

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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GenemZ

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Ok, for the sake of argument, I will ask.

If what you now say is in fact true, at what point the does the born again believer begin again to sin, because the Holy Spirit is still remaining in the believer, and it is still said that, that is the reason he doesn't sin, and also that he cannot sin because he (the believer) is born of God, even in your authority's rendition of said verse.

So then, there are two reasons why a believer does not and cannot sin.
1) The Born Again Believer has the Seed of God remaining in him.
2) Because he is born of God.


You must have read the verse.... Ephesians 4:30?

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption."


That could only pertain to a believer. Correct?

Now, if you could never sin?

How could any believer grieve the Holy Spirit?
 
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JIMINZ

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You must have read the verse.... Ephesians 4:30?

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption."


That could only pertain to a believer. Correct?

Now, if you could never sin?

How could any believer grieve the Holy Spirit?
.
Mainly by reading in context of what Paul was saying to the Ephesians,
and not just by pulling one verse out of context in a feeble attempt to shore up your position and to try and make a point.

Context below, this is how we grieve the holy Spirit.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 
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SBC

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That's foolish to say...

No, it is truthful to say.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
What are you quoting me that for? Who said "have no sin"? I didn't. Sort of ignorant to quote that to one who has said; I was born in sin (how is that saying "have no sin"?). and I have said; I have committed sin (how is that saying "have no sin"?)

You are simply confessing your spiritual bankruptcy. That was 1 John 1:8.

Wrong.
My confession OF MY SINS was TO the Lord.
The forgiveness OF MY SINS was BY the Lord.

Apparently you were not present. But I was and the Lord was, you just need to pay attention to the words in Scripture and the words one testifies of themselves.

Now FYI - the Lord performed some supernatural changes within me, and gave to me title to be His son. And because I am now born of God, I sin NO MORE, or in short, I CAN NOT SIN! 1 John 3:9

What I have declared is NOT spiritual bankruptcy but the complete opposite.
I have a FOREVER born of God living spirit, that forever is WITH the Lord my God.

There is no sense arguing with you. For you continuously sin over this issue.

Of course there is no profit in arguing with you. You attempt to make claims, FOR ME, that do not apply, TO ME, by attempting to use Scriptural words, that are NOT my claims.

"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

If you think repeating yourself validates your position. It doesn't.

If you can not comprehend what I have SAID........then validate your position, by QUOTING MY OWN WORDS, saying "have not sinned"....or hush!

That was 1 John 1:10.

I am not here to argue with you. For I know... You'll fight it and take passages out of their context to make your stand appear to be standing.

Interesting accusation...as you stand accusing, go review what you just did. Search in ANY of my posts, making the claim, "have not sinned".... oops!!

Pretty ignorant - for one to say "have not sinned"... but yet, asked for and was forgiven their sins....and ultimately ignorant for you to make that claim FOR ME.

But, the Word of God can not contradict itself... Like you do to the truth.

I see, you not wanting to argue, but rather give a accusation post.... how amusing.
You could have simply ask how so? If you are going to accuse, at least you could do is use accurate wording, like the person own words, and then your MIGHT realize your err.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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JIMINZ

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You must have read the verse.... Ephesians 4:30?

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption."


That could only pertain to a believer. Correct?

Now, if you could never sin?

How could any believer grieve the Holy Spirit?
.
The question was, according to your understanding, belief.

"At what point does the born again believer begin again to sin?"
 
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GenemZ

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Mainly by reading in context of what Paul was saying to the Ephesians,
and not just by pulling one verse out of context in order to try and make a point.

Context below, this is how we greve the holy Spirit.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


Ephesians 4:30

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption."​


I appreciate all you quoted.

But, how does even the context negate the reality that we can sin after we become born again?
 
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GenemZ

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The question was, according to your understanding, belief.

"At what point does the born again believer begin again to sin?"

The Bible speaks of baby Christians being yet carnal. Correct? Being carnal means they walk in the fles. That means? They will have a propensity to sin.

We never become "sinless."

As we mature and gain understanding as to what to look for? And, accept what the Bible says we are to do about it? (1 John 1:9)?

We will begin live a life where we "sin less."

Then... "much less." .. If we keep on growing in grace.
 
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JIMINZ

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Ephesians 4:30

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption.
"​


I appreciate all you quoted.

But, how does even the context negate the reality that we can sin after we become born again?
.
You see, there is your problem, you and others assume something when it isn't so.

GRIEVE:
G3076
λυπέω
lupeō
loo-peh'-o
From G3077; to distress; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.

G3077
λύπη
lupē
loo'-pay
Apparently a primary word; sadness: - grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow.

The verse Eph. 4:30 did not mention sin.
 
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JIMINZ

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The Bible speaks of baby Christians being yet carnal. Correct? Being carnal means they walk in the fles. That means? They will have a propensity to sin.

We never become "sinless."

As we mature and gain understanding as to what to look for? And, accept what the Bible says we are to do about it? (1 John 1:9)?

We will begin live a life where we "sin less."

Then... "much less." .. If we keep on growing in grace.
.

Rom 7:5 ,6
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

BABE:
G3516
νήπιος
nēpios
nay'-pee-os
Not speaking, that is, an infant (minor); figuratively a simple minded person, an immature Christian: - babe, child (+ -ish).

CARNAL:
G4559
σαρκικός
sarkikos
sar-kee-kos'
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal.......or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.


But we, unlike animals are Regenerated, Born Again unto Newness of life, that Newness of life does not begin when you become a Mature Christian, it takes place when you are Born Again of the Spirit, during Baptism.
 
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JIMINZ

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The Bible speaks of baby Christians being yet carnal. Correct? Being carnal means they walk in the fles. That means? They will have a propensity to sin.

We never become "sinless."

As we mature and gain understanding as to what to look for? And, accept what the Bible says we are to do about it? (1 John 1:9)?

We will begin live a life where we "sin less."

Then... "much less." .. If we keep on growing in grace.
.
Don't you get it, "A Christian is not and can not be Carnal"
He can as a babe walk as a Carnal in the flesh person, but he has been Regenerated, Born Again, if he is yet Carnal as you say then he is none of His

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Pet. 4:1,2
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
 
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GenemZ

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You see, there is your problem, you and others assume something when it isn't so.

GRIEVE:
G3076
λυπέω
lupeō
loo-peh'-o
From G3077; to distress; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.

G3077
λύπη
lupē
loo'-pay
Apparently a primary word; sadness: - grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow.

The verse did not mention sin.


OK.... you want to play that game?

What can a believer do?

That they must be warned not to *grieve* the Holy Spirit?

(besides what you are now doing)?


If you walk in righteousness? You will grieve the Holy Spirit?

Stop grieving the Spirit and tell the truth, please.
 
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GenemZ

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Don't you get it, "A Christian is not and can not be Carnal"
He can as a babe walk as a Carnal in the flesh person, but he has been Regenerated, Born Again, if he is yet Carnal as you say then he is none of His

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What was Paul saying? And whom was his audience? Mature believers. How do we know that?

(notes from class given by my pastor who taught us from the Greek text...)

~In fact, all of you {believers} are absolutely not {ouk} 'in the flesh'/'under the authority of the old sin nature {first husband}, but, in contrast, 'in the Spirit'/under the authority of the Spirit' 'assuming that'/'if indeed' {ei per} the Spirit of God indwells in you all {all believers}


The word "ye" indicates a group, not simply an individual.

From Paul's words we can see that this group consisted of mature believers. Paul was saying that they were walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Then he shifts the subject...

He then explains to them that if they did not have the Spirit, that they would be unbelievers. And, if they were unbelievers they would not be able to benefit from walking in the Spirit.

He was not telling them that if they are having the Spirit that they would never sin. He was making sure they knew they were in Christ.

Now? If what you believe were true? One of us could not be saved.
 
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JIMINZ

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What was Paul saying? And whom was his audience? Mature believers. How do we know that?

(notes from class given by my pastor who taught us from the Greek text...)

~In fact, all of you {believers} are absolutely not {ouk} 'in the flesh'/'under the authority of the old sin nature {first husband}, but, in contrast, 'in the Spirit'/under the authority of the Spirit' 'assuming that'/'if indeed' {ei per} the Spirit of God indwells in you all {all believers}


The word "ye" indicates a group, not simply an individual.

From Paul's words we can see that this group consisted of mature believers. Paul was saying that they were walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Then he shifts the subject...

He then explains to them that if they did not have the Spirit, that they would be unbelievers. And, if they were unbelievers they would not be able to benefit from walking in the Spirit.

He was not telling them that if they are having the Spirit that they would never sin. He was making sure they knew they were in Christ.

Now? If what you believe were true? One of us could not be saved.
.
I feel sorry for you, I'll be praying for your soul.
 
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JIMINZ

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OK.... you want to play that game?

What can a believer do?

That they must be warned not to *grieve* the Holy Spirit?

(besides what you are now doing)?


If you walk in righteousness? You will grieve the Holy Spirit?

Stop grieving the Spirit and tell the truth, please.
.
You are way to imotional about this conversation I think we should call it quits before you have something to repent of, Bye.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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If anyone driving down the road swerves into the wrong lane into oncoming traffic, either.. "willfully"...or unknowingly... are still finding them self breaking the law.

Likewise... sin has the same result in breaking fellowship with God no matter if it was intended, or not. But the one having done so willfully, when standing before the judge has also compounded his sins. For swerving into the lane of oncoming traffic intentionally is breaking the law in multiple ways. Unintentional is only in one way. But, both are sin.
One is unintentional homicide, while the other is murder.

While all sin is sin, the breaking of God's law, and to break even just one means you are a law-breaker along with profligate sinners, (James 2:10,11) yet Scripture makes manifest that there are different degrees of both wickedness and of guilt.

Thus there were church-going Corinthians who were carnal in the sense of being immature as manifested, "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3)

Then there were those who were to be put out of the church by them:

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? (1 Corinthians 5:11-12)

This difference is also inferred later,

For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:20-21)


Sodom and and Gomorrah were not destroyed because they sometimes engaged in foolish jesting or had respect of persons, which is sin, (James 2:9) but because the cry of their iniquity was great, (Genesis 18:20) both in weight and degree, even to being given to fornication and committing the abomination of rampant homosexual fornication. (Ezekiel 16:49.,50, Jude 1:7)

Yet the guilt was greater for those who saw such a level of light and grace that even Sodom would have repented if they were given the same.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (Matthew 11:23)

Likewise the Lord told the religious leaders who sat in the seat of Moses and were thus more accountable, that they "shall receive the greater damnation" (Matthew 23:14).

In contrast,

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:48)

For despite the denial of heretics, there are indeed sins of ignorance:

If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:2)

But unlike such sins as adultery, (Leviticus 22) such did not refer to capital offenses. And thus Paul, who ignorantly thought he was serving God by cleansing the land of the followers of the "sect of the Nazarene," (Acts 24:5) received mercy:

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. (1 Timothy 1:13) Thus he could profess, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. (Acts 23:1)

Also, one can indeed can sin out of weakness, not with full consent of the will which is rebellion, and which is seen in contrast to struggling against sin. The latter is what Paul referred to in Rm. 7, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:19)

And which Hebrews 12:1 refers to: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,..." (Hebrews 12:1)

There is a difference between a halfhearted commitment to Christ and that of the whole heart, as well as a difference btwn someone struggling with giving up smoking, or overcoming a quick temper, or being envious, etc., which are sinful, and that of willfully practicing such sins as adultery.

And while one can sin will-fully by giving into the flesh, yet if they do not repent when convicted of their ways while they can, they will end up having departed from the Lord. Sinning willfully thus sees this warning:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39; cf. Hebrews 3:12;
Galatians 5:1-5)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)

And thus even though David sinned, he could profess,

For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God. (2 Samuel 22:22)

David sinned against the Lord via adultery and 1st degree murder, yet since he repented immediately when convicted of his sins then he could profess that he never wickedly departed. And which David the psalmist prayed against saying,

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. (Psalms 19:13)

Which would be to die in final apostasy, the sin unto death.

And those who imagine they no longer sin based upon their specious wresting of Scriptures such as excludes mistreatment of others as being sin, or that the only reality is what one positionally is in Christ, are deceived and being deceived, against which 1 John 1:10 and 2 Peter 3:16 warns.



 
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ToBeLoved

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OK.... you want to play that game?

What can a believer do?

That they must be warned not to *grieve* the Holy Spirit?

(besides what you are now doing)?


If you walk in righteousness? You will grieve the Holy Spirit?

Stop grieving the Spirit and tell the truth, please.
I don’t necessarily think that grieving the Holy Spirit is all about sin. I think it is more about each of our specific callings and if we grow towards doing God’s will for us in our lives.
 
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