Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[redleghunter]

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Am I supposed to think highly of this A.T. Robertson because you do?

I have never heard of the man.

I have quoted Apostles, and you don't believe them, you don't respect my position on the issue, but I am supposed to honor yours?

I don't think we have anything further to discuss.
You have a good evening.

Did you just willfully chew out Peacebyjesus?

 

[1stcenturylady]

It's a little of both... we can walk on the spirit now but we are still trapped in fleshly bodies. Just look in the mirror... have you aged? Is there decay? Disease? Death? The wages of sin is death and we still die which means Yeshua has paid the price and earned the right to perfect us, but we remain (at this time) imperfect. When he comes we will be changed, until then we are what we are.

I really don't think Paul meant in verse 8:8 that our body can never please God. I believe he was referring to the flesh, meaning carnal mind which hasn't been regenerated, don't you? That can never please God. But then he says in 8:9 but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if we have the Holy Spirit, otherwise we don't belong to Christ. That is not referring to the physical body, but what will go on even after we receive our immortal body.

 

[JIMINZ]

My point was those who know the languages.

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I personally have no regard for the Supposed Translations of today.

 

[JIMINZ]

Did you just willfully chew out Peacebyjesus?

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Just spoke the truth.
Now do you have anything to add to the conversation, or do you just want to snipe at me?

 

[Ken Rank]

I really don't think Paul meant in verse 8:8 that our body can never please God. I believe he was referring to the flesh, meaning carnal mind which hasn't been regenerated, don't you? That can never please God. But then he says in 8:9 but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if we have the Holy Spirit, otherwise we don't belong to Christ. That is not referring to the physical body, but what will go on even after we receive our immortal body.

Kind of going way off from where I commented and where you still haven't responded. Bottom line, we have not been perfected, not made incorruptible, the work is not done. We are still in a fallen state, still decaying, still dying, still exposed to all manner of unrighteousness. We do belong to Him now... we seek perfection... we seek His will over the world... but we won't live out our lives without falling short at some point. That is a fact because... we have not been perfected yet.

 

[1stcenturylady]

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I personally have no regard for the Supposed Translations of today.

So which codex do you use? But wait, they are also translations. We don't have the original letters anymore.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Kind of going way off from where I commented and where you still haven't responded. Bottom line, we have not been perfected, not made incorruptible, the work is not done. We are still in a fallen state, still decaying, still dying, still exposed to all manner of unrighteousness. We do belong to Him now... we seek perfection... we seek His will over the world... but we won't live out our lives without falling short at some point. That is a fact because... we have not been perfected yet.

I'm sorry, what haven't I responded to. Can you ask me again? Or give me the #?

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm sorry, what haven't I responded to. Can you ask me again? Or give me the #?

I have repeatedly pointed out that we have not been perfected, we have not been made incorruptible. We still decay, get disease, die. And yet you make it sound like we can't fall short... kind of confusing to me because if we haven't been perfected we are, by definition, imperfect.

 

[JIMINZ]

So which codex do you use? But wait, they are also translations. We don't have the original letters anymore.

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Of TODAY

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have repeatedly pointed out that we have not been perfected, we have not been made incorruptible. We still decay, get disease, die. And yet you make it sound like we can't fall short... kind of confusing to me because if we haven't been perfected we are, by definition, imperfect.

I see it as apples and oranges. We are talking about two different things, our body of flesh which will decay, and our soulish flesh our carnal nature which is what becomes a "new creation." Its not an all or nothing.

 

[1stcenturylady]

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Of TODAY

So what do you study? You are being confusing.

 

[Ken Rank]

I see it as apples and oranges. We are talking about two different things, our body of flesh which will decay, and our soulish flesh our carnal nature which is what becomes a "new creation." Its not an all or nothing.

It is only apples and oranges because you changed the subject. I said we can still sin and that Paul spoke in present tense when he said he was the chief sinner. That stands against your paradigm and you took issue and then to back up why Paul (and I) have this view, I pointed out that we haven't been perfected yet and until we are, we will fall short from time to time. Not in rebellion, just from being fallen. You skipped over that and went straight to something that has nothing to do with this topic. Being lost now, I will back out. Be blessed sis.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is only apples and oranges because you changed the subject. I said we can still sin and that Paul spoke in present tense when he said he was the chief sinner. That stands against your paradigm and you took issue and then to back up why Paul (and I) have this view, I pointed out that we haven't been perfected yet and until we are, we will fall short from time to time. Not in rebellion, just from being fallen. You skipped over that and went straight to something that has nothing to do with this topic. Being lost now, I will back out. Be blessed sis.

Oh, okay. Well I believe the apostles meant we can be perfect now. What that perfection entails is through perfect love. But we can do nothing without the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I'll say good night for now, brother.

 

[JIMINZ]

So what do you study? You are being confusing.

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KJV

 

[JIMINZ]

Did you just willfully chew out Peacebyjesus?

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Ummmm no.

 

[SBC]

Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

We are supposed to know all people are sinners.
We, who are saved and born again are supposed to think of ourselves, freed from sin.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[PeaceByJesus]

PeaceByJesus said: ↑
Christians are warned (n being addressed as Christians) against committing will-full (versus out of weakness) sin:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4)

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[/COLOR]
So is the above addressing Willful Sin or, Unknown Sin?

Do you think that conversion is not a willful act, or is salvific if it is not (cf. Acts 8:36,37)? And that likewise denying the Lord by formally (signified by circumcision) freely volitionally converting to a false gospel as in this case is not also a willful act? But this could be a case of some being deceived into thinking that this was not inconsistent with salvation by faith, which Paul thus tells them it surely is.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

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Am I supposed to think highly of this A.T. Robertson because you do?

As one who is attempting to engage in a debate, which substantially rests upon the meaning of 1John 3:9 and the like, then you should know or at least respect esteemed scholars in Greek Biblical language.

Of course there are others who confirm what Robertson states:
Whedon's Commentary on the Bible

The verb sin, in Hebrews 10:26, clearly means to become a sinner, in opposition to being a Christian. In this chapter, (1 John 3:8,) sinneth is in the continuous present, and means permanently practises sin. See note on 1 John 5:18.

Wuest [professor of New Testament Greek at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, one of the translators of the original New American Standard Bible (NASB)]

says practices - is poieō in the present tense which always speaks of continuous action unless the context limits it to punctiliar action, namely, the mere mention of the fact of the action, without the mentioning of details. The translation reads, “Every one who has been born out of God, with the present result that he is a born-one (of God), does not habitually do sin.” (Kenneth Samuel Wuest (1893 – 1962), Word Studies from the Greek New Testament) More.

There are a few other scholarly interpretations but that do not find texts such as 1 John 3:9 as teaching believers absolutely cease to sin.


And since your premise requires my trusting your meaning of texts then am

I have never heard of the man.

That is consistent with your arguments for your heresy.

Works by Archibald Thomas Robertson (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

Syllabus for New Testament Greek Syntax (1900)
Life and Letters of John Albert Broadus (1901)
Bibliography of New Testament Greek (1903)
Teaching of Jesus Concerning God the Father (1904)
Epochs in the Life of Jesus (1907)
Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament (1908; Italian translation, 1910; German translation, 1911; French translation, 1911; Dutch translation, 1912)
Epochs in the Life of Paul (1909; new edition, 1914)
John the Loyal, or Studies in the Ministry of the Baptist (1911; new edition, 1915)
The Glory of the Ministry (1911)
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (1914)
Practical and Social Aspects of Christianity (1915)
Studies in the New Testament (1915)
The New Citizenship (1919)
Luke the Historian in the Light of Historical Research (1920)
The Pharisees and Jesus (1920)
Types of Preachers in the New Testament (1922)
The Minister and His Greek New Testament (1923)
An Introduction to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament (1925)
Word Pictures of the New Testament (1927)
Some Minor Characters in the New Testament (1928)
Paul and the Intellectuals: The Epistle to the Colossians (1928)
A Harmony of the Gospels (1922)
Passing on the Torch and Other Sermons (1934)

What testifies to your proficiency?

I have quoted Apostles, and you don't believe them, you don't respect my position on the issue, but I am supposed to honor yours?

That is sheer ignorance. Every cult quotes apostles, as the devil himself quotes Scripture to deceive souls as you insolently have, using texts in isolation, and which is manifest by comparing Scripture with Scripture, which makes it clear being a believer does not mean one absolutely ceases to sin, but that (writing to "my little children"), "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins [likely of ignorance: cf. Mark 2:1-11], they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)

Confess your faults [paraptōma - trespasses: Mat_6:14-15 (3), Mat_18:35, Mar_11:25-26 (2), 2Co_5:19, Eph_2:1, Col_2:13 -
offence:
Rom_5:15 (2), Rom_5:17-18 (2), Rom_5:20
- sins:
Eph_1:7, Eph_2:5, Col_2:13] one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)

Thus believers are exhorted to overcome sin:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (Colossians 3:4-5)

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (Ephesians 4:22)

My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
For in many things we offend [ptaiō: James 2:10, James 3:2; 2 Peter 1:10;
Rom_11:10-11] all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:1,2)

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. (Galatians 2:11-13)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward [recompense] according to his own labour. (1 Corinthians 3:8)

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners [writing to "brethren"]; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:8-10)

And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Revelation 2:3-5)

I don't think we have anything further to discuss.

Since you do not engaging in reasonable discussion, but arrogantly assert, or wrest Scriptures, and dismiss what refutes you thereby, then you made that to be the case.

 

[Ken Rank]

Oh, okay. Well I believe the apostles meant we can be perfect now. What that perfection entails is through perfect love. But we can do nothing without the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I'll say good night for now, brother.

If so... why would Paul use present tense "I am" when referring to himself as a sinner? He wasn't rebellious, we know that, but he also knew he could fall short because he... and us... still exist in a fallen state. We are not like Adam walking in the cool of the day with the Lord, but we 'will' be.

And don't misunderstand... I am not talking about the guy who witnessed to me in a bar 24 years ago while he downed 10 beers claiming, "I am forgiven for this." I am simply saying that while we aim at the proper target (the righteousness of God) we will simply, because we still exist in a fallen state, miss from time to time. That miss may come in the form of an overly emotional reaction to something or someone, judgement that enters the realm of condemning, and so forth. Things that are unintentional but still are not perfectly line with His will.

 

[JacksBratt]

I mean all I can say is I disagree with you as well... in fact you're view is more extreme then the one i'm against.

Some believe that we are still sinners even those who are saved but even they don't believe in declaring it.

I believe in declaring "being then made free from sin ye are a servant of righteouenss" and "now unto him who is able to keep me from falling".


There isn't a right/wrong answer to this as far as I can tell though, people in every faith are divided on this issue IK people in my faith for example who believe hey we are all still sinners and some who don't believe in walking in that as I do, and both are mightily used by God.

Same goes with people in other faiths, some people in the keep sin title thing some do.


Additionally, a mistake isn't the same as a sin... btw a sin is a mistake but a mistake against God, it's not like being late for class....or making a poor financial decision.

Well, I agree that we disagree and that is a mature attitude for us both to accept.

However, sin is not a "mistake". Mistakes are writing down a 7 instead of a 9 or miscalculating a sum or product of numbers... calling someone Joe instead of their real name.. say Ted...

Sin is none of these and none of these are sins.

Sin can be defined as: "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law."

I understand that some here believe that, after they accept Christ, they will never sin. Others believe as I do, that it is impossible for me to do so.


These people have their belief set and it is unlikely that it will change.

All I know is that I am a true Christian and child of God and I am not ashamed to say that I continually need to ask forgiveness for the sins I have committed and will continue, against my desires, on purpose or accidentally...not for renewal of my salvation but for renewal of my connection and fellowship with Christ.

Let me ask you, and those that believe like you:

Do you never ask for forgiveness anymore.. since your salvation?