Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[JIMINZ]

Non Christians need to know that being saved does not mean that they become little angels and stop drinking, swearing, lying, drugs, and a whole myriad of sins........in an instant.

We come to Christ as little baby Christians... Christians just the same... a changed heart and a changed destination when we die...

But, we grow, we start with the milk of scripture and we mature into the meat...

.
No argument there, when your right your right.

 

[JIMINZ]

We gradually lose the desires we had before and become righteous in the process of seeking righteousness.

.
It's not in the seeking and fulfilling whereby we attain Righteousness.

It's by what Jesus did, which gained Righteousness for us.

2 Co. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[JIMINZ]

I did not mean to say it in a necessarily negative way, but, whatever...? I meant any of us, each equally, would be a hypocrite...

God Bless!

.

In my mind if you say your not a sinner or do not ever sin, then your a hypocrite...

.
I was only pointing out how you began your post, it really sounded
like you were hastily correcting, criticizing, judging, condemning.

I am curious, what makes a Christian a Hypocrite if he says.
"I am not a sinner, or if he says he never sins"

What is it in you, which refuses to believe, the possibility of truth in those statements?

Is there some Denominational Doctrine, which is the basis of your understanding?

 

[JIMINZ]

.
Being a Christian and a Sinner is an Oxymoron.

.
Believe me when I say, "That is no laughing matter"

 

[Neogaia777]

.

.
I was only pointing out how you began your post, it really sounded
like you were hastily correcting, criticizing, judging, condemning.

I am curious, what makes a Christian a Hypocrite if he says.
"I am not a sinner, or if he says he never sins"

What is it in you, which refuses to believe, the possibility of truth in those statements?

Is there some Denominational Doctrine, which is the basis of your understanding?

I just don't believe it's possible, he can be declared not to be a sinner by God... but that usually has to do the the consequence or penalty of sin...

 

[Neogaia777]

Are we freed from sinning, or just from being declared sinners...?

 

[JIMINZ]

1) I just don't believe it's possible,
2) he can be declared not to be a sinner by God...

.
Ok then there are two statements which can be used as a starting point for a conversation, I have cut things down so we are able to keep a handle on things.

1) Are you able to put some meat on that belief, with some Scripture?

2) This is the crux of the whole issue.
Does Scripture only Declare a Christian to not be a sinner.
Or, does the Christian actually become sinless?

I would really like to have this conversation, but if it doesn't begin where the Old Man died and our Salvation began, then any understanding of a Christians becoming Sinless will be lost.

What I am saying is, if this is the path we take, then all of your questions will be answered, not by what I say my beliefs are, but by what the Scripture itself says.

Everything will be explained in order, one step at a time, because God is not the author of confusion but of peace, only in this way, will you ever be able to understand, how someone comes to the belief of a Christian being Sinless.

In Christ be Blessed

 

[Archivist]

Oh I'm a beautiful, glorious, creation of God Almighty, but, I still do sin sometimes...

What does that mean...?

God Bless!

That means you are a Christian.

 

[Archivist]

.
Being a Christian and a Sinner is an Oxymoron.

No it is not.

 

[Archivist]

It wasn't a false accusation. You just don't want to admit you were judging. Your preconceived idea that I must willfully sin is a judgment. Your wanting me to adhere to your checklist is your own standard. You have no idea what I do, but I know you would be surprised.

1 John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

The Outworking of Love
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

No, saying that you are a sinner is a statement of fact. I’m a sinner too we all sin and come short of the glory of God, and if we say we are without sin the truth is not in us.

 

[Archivist]

Just trying to get on track here, you said.



From what you said, I can only assume, your of the impression that getting upset is a sin?

If what you say is in fact sin, why then did Paul say.

Eph. 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

It isn't in the being Angry / Upset, it's being in what follows that anger, it's what a person does after the anger is there, does he follow up on it, does he do something back in retribution, vengeance, that is where the sin resides.

If your going to categorize sin, with all of it's degrees, then at least get a handle on what sin is.

By the way do you understand what the Definition of sin actually is?

I'll give you a hint, it isn't found in a definition of the word SIN, it is what the bible itself says sin is.

The example you offered is of righteous anger. That is not a sin. Please read what I wrote. I specifically said becoming angry with someone when they were in fact in the right. That is unjustified anger and it is a sin.

 

[Neogaia777]

That means you are a Christian.

Of course...

 

[Neogaia777]

No it is not.

Actually, it's a paradox maybe...?

Is the truth "paradoxial" in nature, and is that why it can seem on the surface to be contradictory?

 

[SBC]

In my mind if you say your not a sinner or do not ever sin, then your a hypocrite...
...

God Bless!

According to Scripture:

We who are out of the earth, are "we", who have a common, connection.
We are all born in Sin. Thus, everyone, is a sinner.
We all commit Sin. Thus, everyone, is a sinner.
Thus, I agree; it would generally be hypocritical for one to say they are not a sinner.

According to some individuals:

Some do not believe in God.
Some do not therefore believe they ARE sinners, against God.
Thus, I would not call them a hypocrite.
I would call them against God, because of their disbelief.

According to Scripture;

We who do believe in God, are all sinners. Born in Sin, and commit Sin.
We are NOT naturally born, standing WITH God. Thus we are born in Sin.
We ARE naturally born, from a natural man's seed, which IS corrupt. Thus we are born in Sin.

According to Scripture;

We commit Sin by every act, word, deed, we do, BECAUSE, ALL we do, does not exalt or glorify God.
We WHO, begin , hearing ABOUT God, become blessed by God, with a beginning faith.
God is light, His Word is light, His reflection of light upon us, is HOW He gives us a beginning faith.

According to Scripture;

We WHO continue, hearing, reading, learning His Word;
His light continues, reflecting upon us, WHICH is, a result of His light, increasing our faith.

According to Scripture;

WHEN we, individually, DECIDE, we are SURE of our belief of His Word.
We can, individually, MAKE an election, to SUBMIT, to God.
And Scripture, reveals, for us to give serious thought, to be sure, knowing what you are choosing to do, and that IS our true election.

1Thes.1
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
2Pet.1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:

According to Scripture;

The choice to hear, read, learn, know about Him, IS our Choice.
God, allows for NO EXCUSES, for what men CAN SEE God has made and created, for a man, to not believe His Works.
IOW - IF a man can not believe in God Himself; it is acceptable to Him, that a man believes, the world a man CAN SEE, was made and created BY God, which IS, simply another method, acceptable to God,
of giving a man a beginning faith, by first believing His works.

John 10
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Rom 1
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

According to Scripture;

When a man decides to SUBMIT to God; it is somewhat of a two party involvement.
Meaning -
1) God is calling the man to Him, through the faith that God is enlightening the man with.
2) The man is receiving, supernaturally hearing, feeling, the urge to, submit to God.

(sort of like God tugging at a mans heart strings, if you will)

According to Scripture;

When a man Submits to God, the man is effectively ANSWERING Gods calling.
Several things, instantly occur, to the man's body, the man's soul, the man's heart, the man's spirit.
And these things, ARE effecting the man being BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit of God.
And BY and THROUGH the Baptism of the Holy Spirit of God, HIS SPIRIT forever dwells within and keeps THAT man, unto HIM forever.

According to Scripture;

A man, so Baptized with the indwelling Spirit of God, effects the man, being accounted;
As born of God, as a son of God, as free from sin, as never again capable of committing sin.

According to MANY men;

"THEY" claim:
To be Baptized with the indwelling Spirit of God.
AND to be FREE of sin.
AND to "continue" to sin.

HUH? HOW does a man CONCLUDE this?

According to MANY men;
When Scripture notified them, God forgave ALL of their sins; He didn't really mean ALL. He simply meant, PAST and CURRENT, but not FUTURE SIN.

However NOT ONE Scripture notifies a man, that God IS stupid, that God IS a liar, that God IS NOT all knowing, that God must wait to see what a man will do, BEFORE He can forgive a man.

Either a MAN believes Gods Word is TRUE, or a MAN doesn't believe Gods Word is True.

IF a man HAS become Baptized with the Spirit of God - know ye - God does NOT dwell with SIN.

Pss 5
[4] For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Rom 8
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

IF a man HAS become Baptized with the Spirit of God, and God is with the man, and the man is with God......How IS a man, STILL able to SIN, while the Spirit of God is within Him?

And IS it not a man WHO SINS, the same man, SUBJECT TO Gods wrath? SUBJECT TO a second death?

Why DOES God, free a man from sin, account the man as "born of God", account the man as a "son of God", accounted the man "Unable to Sin"......WHEN the man IS "unchanged", and STILL openly testifying, He continues to sin?

What is really happening?
The man TRUSTS to believe Gods Word of Baptism?
But yet does not TRUST to believe Gods Word of KEEPING the man FREE FROM SIN?

Why? The answer is simple.

The man submits to God, and receives Gods blessings, of forgiveness, being internally changed, being given Gods Holy Spirit, being given FULL faith-FULLNESS. <--- ALL Spiritual events. Not tangible, to be seen or heard by ears of earthly men. All spiritual, all a connection to the mans' HEARTS thoughts.

Men will announce; hallelujah, praise God, I'm forgiven, born again, saved, His Spirit dwells within me.

AND? Then what?
They have a thought (IN THEIR MIND).
They ACT, DO, SAY, something that came to (THEIR MIND).

OOPS.....THEY have another thought (in their MIND)...THAT was a sin!
OOPS.....THEY have another thought (in their MIND)..They had better go tell GOD;
HIS FREEING THEM FROM SIN FAILED!

But men don't really SAY, God failed, do they?
They say "THEY failed", and SINNED AGAIN, right?

BUT WHO IS IT THAT DID the FORGIVING and SAVING and FREEING from sin? man or God?
So in truth, if the man is confessing to God, that the man sinned AGAIN....
The man IS effectively saying -
Gods forgiveness FAILED.
Gods saving FAILED.
Gods freeing the man from sin FAILED.
AND WHOOPS! God has been fooled. WHOOPS, Gods Holy Spirit is dwelling in that mans confessed sin

So WHY is a man LISTENING to HIS CARNAL MIND?
IS that not a mans carnal mind, that is TRUMPING Gods own word?
IS that not a mans carnal mind, saying, but, but, but, I had a wicked thought, or did a wicked deed?
IS that not a mans carnal mind, TELLING YOU, you are not worthy?

FYI - God did not SPIRITUALLY change ONE THING in your carnal MIND!
FYI - God DID Spiritually change the thoughts in your HEART!
FYI - Scripture teaches you to start LISTENING to your HEART, and your MIND will become subjected to the thoughts of your HEART.

When a man HAS MASTERED, to STOP acting, and reacting, to the thoughts of HIS MIND, and when stupid junk comes to HIS MIND, to immediately, TURN to the thoughts of his HEART, such man is STOPPING himself from walking in FLESH, to walking in the SPIRIT!

So - When a man says - He has the Holy Spirit dwelling with Him - THAT IS Spiritual!
And - When a man ALSO says - He continues to commit sin - THAT IS Carnal!

THAT is the case - of a man claiming to Walk in the Spirit, while Walking in the Flesh!

And no doubt - there IS a WHOLE pocket full of twisted, philosophical, logical, REASONS, a man walking in the Flesh can render and argue for his Carnal reasoning, that Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit AND continuing to Sin, IS possible.

No, it is not. Walking in the Spirit and Walking in the Flesh, IS either OR, NOT both.

Gods TRUTH, is NOT based on philosophical, logical reasoning, drummed up in a mans MIND.
Gods TRUTH, simply IS the complete absence of what is a LIE.

When Gods Spirit dwells within a man - that man has become FREED from SIN, FREED from ever again committing sin. He can not sin. He can NOT ever again BE against God. Period. <--- THAT IS GODS TRUTH.

When a man says, He IS forgiven, saved, born again, AND STILL Commits SIN <---- THAT IS MANS LIE. THAT IS: man trusting a created mans carnal thoughts OVER Gods Word.

Rom 1
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Gods Word IS;

1 John 3
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So why does a man - go to Scripture read about ALL the men, WHO ARE NOT BORN of GOD.....and see what they do, that is called a SIN.......and EQUAL yourself to THEM! FORGET, you are forgiven. FORGET, you have become born of God. Forget, those men are teaching examples, of WHAT YOU WERE, and that many are born daily, and those are examples for the unforgiven. Forget all of that - KEEP yourself, equal with them, who have not YET, become born of God. Do not be wise. Do not comprehend, that the Scriptures YOU have fulfilled, with your belief, your submission, have come to pass. Keep applying and equaling yourself to men who have NOT become forgiven and saved and born again.

Stop playing a game. Claiming you are forgiven, freed from SIN, and continue to sin.

Stop claiming you Walk in the Spirit, while walking in the Flesh. It is a lie.

God forgives a believing man of ALL sin.

Know what Christ's body took upon Himself when His body hung until death on the Cross.
It was a NOT, kind of, sort of, wait and see what YOU might carnally think or do.
It was complete forgiveness of ALL SIN of a man WHO believes Christ IS your Savior.
He did not kind of, sort of, wait and see what YOU might carnally think or do.
It was complete forgiveness of ALL SIN of a man WHO believes Christ IS your Savior.

Heb 9
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If a man has accepted His offering of His pure sinless body, FOR your corrupt sinful body ONCE....
How many times thereafter, does He need to offer His body, for yours, for a man to be forgiven over and over and over, when he has been forgiven of ALL sin?

Eph 1
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

How many times does Jesus have to GIVE his blood, so He can repeatedly forgive you?

1 John 1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If God has forgiven a man of his sins, AND cleansed him FROM all unrighteousness....How does a man cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, thereafter commit sin?

TRUST GOD; He forgives a man of ALL of Sin. His Spirit dwells within the man. What a man speaking with his carnal mind, claiming he continues to sin, is false. God does not dwell within sin. Your body is cleansed, sanctified, dead to sin, freed from sin, regardless of what a man carnally says.

However, carnal speech, while trying to convey spiritual matters, is a fail, and not a glorifying to God.

God, has forgiven ALL of a believing mans sins. ALL! Whether or not, one believes they STILL SIN, they according to God, CAN NOT. His calling and election of YOU, and YOUR election of Him, will stand, for His purpose and His benefit and yours.

Rom 9

1. [11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

TRUST GOD, that His Word is True, and His Way is according to what is acceptable to Him. The election of you to God, and God to you STANDS, without regard to works. His forgiveness is full and complete, that His WILL shall be done, accomplished and acceptable to Him.

Trust God. He is not getting advise from men, to see what is acceptable to men.


1 John 3
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So, are we ALL SINNERS? Of course. And once forgiven and born of God, what does God want you to call yourself? A sinner? No. But, rather, Trusting of God, Faithful to God, Forgiven, Freed from Sin, Sin no more, born of God, a son of God.

Is it hypocritical for a man claiming to be born of God, to say he sins no more?
Why? Isn't that a man trusting to believe God over and above the minds and words of the created?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

But it isn’t possible to find a person who doesn’t willfully sin. Despite our best efforts we all do.

Between you and 1stC-lady - the dispute seems to be "over" the commission of "willful" sin.

So to you as well, 1stC-lady -

How does any man, who has become indwell with the Holy Spirit, thereafter commit ANY Sin, willful or otherwise?

Do you believe??
A man with the indwelling Holy Spirit, is perhaps NOT, born of God?
or perhaps, 1 john 3 is false?

How is your teaching inline with 1 John 3:9 ?

1 John 3
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Thanks,
God Bless,
SBC

 

[RaymondG]

You will only be being truthful if you accept that you still sin. I have not known, met, heard of or expect to see any human, besides Christ, that can live in this world and not sin.... Christian or not. I also don't condemn them for their life and their actions in it.

However, to continually profess to live on this earth and not sin.... that is a tall tall tall statement to live up to. And, IMO, it is impossible.

I don't doubt for a moment that you are a Christian with great intensions. When the role is called up yonder, you will be there, as will I.

As I have said on this forum many times.... when we get to glory, look me up and we can sit under the tree of life and laugh about all the things, in this life, that we were wrong about but thought we were so right.

The only professions being made here are your professions of being a sinner and believing you will remain one till you die. I haven't made any professions for myself....you are assuming...

It was impossible to fly before the planes were built.... anyone saying that it was possible were crazy.

It is natural for one to believe something impossible before seeing it done, or having it done in them.

No need stating what I believe.....If we can't understand the natural, the spiritual would be even less comprehensible.

The way is narrow and few there be that find it. It is a lonely road to heaven. Only he that endure to the end will be saved.

Holiness without, no man shall see the Lord.

I encourage you to keep believing you have to sin, until you are already to believe you don't have to anymore.

 

[JacksBratt]

.
It's not in the seeking and fulfilling whereby we attain Righteousness.

It's by what Jesus did, which gained Righteousness for us.

2 Co. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Well, I believe the ONLY righteousness that is in me is due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The only righteousness in me is that of God.

This verse doesn't indicate that I will ever attain personal righteousness on this earth. I aim for it, strive for it, set my life compass on it as a goal, yet continue to fall short, as I am human.

I will attain my goal of righteousness when I am in glory.

 

[JacksBratt]

The only professions being made here are your professions of being a sinner and believing you will remain one till you die. I haven't made any professions for myself....you are assuming...

It was impossible to fly before the planes were built.... anyone saying that it was possible were crazy.

It is natural for one to believe something impossible before seeing it done, or having it done in them.

No need stating what I believe.....If we can't understand the natural, the spiritual would be even less comprehensible.

The way is narrow and few there be that find it. It is a lonely road to heaven. Only he that endure to the end will be saved.

Holiness without, no man shall see the Lord.

I encourage you to keep believing you have to sin, until you are already to believe you don't have to anymore.

Building an airplane to fly..... this was well within the abilities of man.

There is no human capability of living a sinless life. It is beyond our ability.

The parallel is not representative.

We can build an airplane.

We cannot earn or do anything to achieve salvation.

We are saved through Christ and live our lives out, here on earth, striving to live as righteously as we are able.

Some live much more outwardly visible Christian walk.

Some struggle more with their trials, hurdles and demons.......yet despite these worldly conflicts within them... are bound for heaven. Just as assuredly as Dr. Billy Graham or even any of the apostles.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Sorry friend, but I must totally disagree.

It is imperative that we admit that we are still sinners and declare it. Anything but is living a false life. Which is a sin.

Admitting our shortcomings is paramount to striving to improve and walk a closer life to that which Jesus lived. Ever knowing that it is impossible, so that we don't get discouraged... but still, with the strength of Christ, striving to be more that way.

I mean all I can say is I disagree with you as well... in fact you're view is more extreme then the one i'm against.

Some believe that we are still sinners even those who are saved but even they don't believe in declaring it.

I believe in declaring "being then made free from sin ye are a servant of righteouenss" and "now unto him who is able to keep me from falling".


There isn't a right/wrong answer to this as far as I can tell though, people in every faith are divided on this issue IK people in my faith for example who believe hey we are all still sinners and some who don't believe in walking in that as I do, and both are mightily used by God.

Same goes with people in other faiths, some people in the keep sin title thing some do.


Additionally, a mistake isn't the same as a sin... btw a sin is a mistake but a mistake against God, it's not like being late for class....or making a poor financial decision.

 

[GenemZ]

.
Being a Christian and a Sinner is an Oxymoron.

You need to learn what the Bible says and stop being ruled by your wishful desired outcome.

Please... read carefully. Romans 7:15-20.

The Apostle Paul....

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."


Then Paul continues to describe the battle that all born again believers must face at some time in their maturing process. And, will face it, if the Holy Spirit can get through to them. Problem is... Dull self righteousness remains numb. The Spirit is grieved and quenched when a self righteous believer fails to admit the truth that he chooses to deny as a means to save his delusion about himself. That is why Jesus said if we want to save our life, we will lose it. But, if we lose it for the sake of Christ? We will find it! The new life that can only be had in the power of the Spirit when a believer humbly submits to the Truth...


21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

If you never experience that in your post salvation life? You are not living the needed life to gain the life God wants us to have in Christ. We must decrease, so he can increase. We can not decrease if we can not see what it is that gets in the way. That is why Jesus had such a hatred for the mind set of the Pharisees. They thought they were above being sinners... Its one reason why they are mentioned in the Bible. For believers who think like them must see what their problem is before God's grace can overcome it. Paul was the worst of Pharisees at one time. His example leaves all the little pharisees amongst us to be without excuse before God. .