Did Jesus lie?

[mark kennedy]

Jesus was both God and man, and as a man could be tempted and die, God cannot do either, so Jesus could also mislead.

Previously I quoted the OT where an angel of light volunteers at God's call to deceive the king.

Where does it say, thou shalt not lie?

How do you know the angel who volunteered to go forth as a liar, wasn't Satan himself. He has access to the courts of heaven.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

How do you know the angel who volunteered to go forth as a liar, wasn't Satan himself. He has access to the courts of heaven.

In the Gospel passage entitled Jesus and Beelzebub, Jesus taught that Satan is not divided against Satan. So the angel was one that would only work for God and do his will.

 

[mark kennedy]

In the Gospel passage entitled Jesus and Beelzebub, Jesus taught that Satan is not divided against Satan. So the angel was one that would only work for God and do his will.

Actually Jesus said if Satan casts our Satan he is finished.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Actually Jesus said if Satan casts our Satan he is finished.

Satan meaning any fallen angel or demon... will never work against their own cause and kingdom.

 

[mark kennedy]

Satan meaning any fallen angel or demon... will never work against their own cause and kingdom.

Not deliberately.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus was both God and man, and as a man could be tempted and die, God cannot do either, so Jesus could also mislead.

Previously I quoted the OT where an angel of light volunteers at God's call to deceive the king.

Where does it say, thou shalt not lie?

It says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

That is a very explicit prohibition regarding a very specific circumstance.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

That is a very explicit prohibition regarding a very specific circumstance.

It is unclean to slander, yes. What about covering offences as in 1 Cor 13 and Jesus warning us to make amends before being taken to judges and the torturers?

 

[RDKirk]

How do you know the angel who volunteered to go forth as a liar, wasn't Satan himself. He has access to the courts of heaven.

Satan also had access to the courts of heaven--see Job 1. But you know that.

Kings and Chronicles calls it a "lying spirit." This is not just a spirit contracted on that specific occasion to tell a lie, but by saying "lying spirit," they indicate that lying was his nature. It is what he did. If his nature were that of a warrior, he'd have been a "fighting spirit." But he was, inherently, a "lying spirit."

We know that the lying spirit was Satan because Jesus identified Satan as "the father of lies, and a liar from the beginning."

 

[RDKirk]

It is unclean to slander, yes. What about covering offences as in 1 Cor 13 and Jesus warning us to make amends before being taken to judges and the torturers?

Both of those verses pertain to forgiving others of their offenses, which I don't think directly applies.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Satan also had access to the courts of heaven--see Job 1. But you know that.

Kings and Chronicles calls it a "lying spirit." This is not just a spirit contracted on that specific occasion to tell a lie, but by saying "lying spirit," they indicate that lying was his nature. It is what he did. If his nature were that of a warrior, he'd have been a "fighting spirit." But he was, inherently, a "lying spirit."

We know that the lying spirit was Satan because Jesus identified Satan as "the father of lies, and a liar from the beginning."

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. KJV

Satan is not the father of all lies. The spirit here acted out of the normal as a lying spirit, agreeing after hearing the others' ideas, coming up with the best idea for God's plan. I would say God who reveals and hides things as he wants in wisdom, did not allow Satan to hear otherwise he would have wrecked the plan.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Jesus was both God and man, and as a man could be tempted and die, God cannot do either, so Jesus could also mislead.

Previously I quoted the OT where an angel of light volunteers at God's call to deceive the king.

Where does it say, thou shalt not lie?

Hebrews 6:18 "that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."

Matthew 5:37 “But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”

John 1:1 "IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

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John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 “Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

1 Timothy 1:10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

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Jesus Christ was never misled nor did HE lie. In Scripture liars are associated with the devil...the evil one, with fornicators, sodomites, abominable, murderers, idolaters, and with the lake of fire. The exact phrase "thou shall not lie" is completely unnecessary, the message from Scripture concerning lies is clear.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hebrews 6:18 "that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."

Matthew 5:37 “But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”

John 1:1 "IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 “Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

1 Timothy 1:10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus Christ was never misled nor did HE lie. In Scripture liars are associated with the devil...the evil one, with fornicators, sodomites, abominable, murderers, idolaters, and with the lake of fire. The exact phrase "thou shall not lie" is completely unnecessary, the message from Scripture concerning lies is clear.

I know this, which is why I typed in that God cannot die, or lie. But Jesus was tempted, which can only be through his humanity, he was hungry, tired, needed to eat, was wounded, was made sin and died.

Only by his humanity could God in Jesus Christ do this.

I think those who make and believe a lie are people who confabulate such concepts as Artemis of the Ephesians. Or again things like, Diana whose image fell from Heaven...

An hypothetical is a lie in a sense and perhaps a theory also.

Jesus wanted a simple yes or no. Not oaths. Swearing by the temple...

We discern good from evil and right from wrong, by what gives you peace, or wholeness. A lie could give you and others peace, while a fact could do harm.

 

[Dave-W]

Where does it say, thou shalt not lie?

It says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
That is a very explicit prohibition regarding a very specific circumstance.

True. False witness is not the same as a lie. False witness is the equivalent of our "purgery," or lying in a court of law on a legal matter. Since the death penalty could be given on the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses, it was absolutely mandatory that the testimony be truthful.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

True. False witness is not the same as a lie. False witness is the equivalent of our "purgery," or lying in a court of law on a legal matter. Since the death penalty could be given on the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses, it was absolutely mandatory that the testimony be truthful.

Which is why I refer to Jesus calling slander unclean. Getting someone killed is unclean. Or making them pay a fine... It takes away someone's peace.

Slander and blasphemy are unclean lies. But lying to cover an offence can be kind and peaceable. It needs be weighed up as by Peter the apostle.

Also:
Pro 19:11 The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression. KJV.

 

[Dave-W]

Which is why I refer to Jesus calling slander unclean.

I think it was earlier in this thread I said that the Rabbinic oral tradition was not completely rejected by Jesus.

This is one shining example of His being in agreement with the rabbis/pharisees. Do a web search on "Lashon Harah." (evil tongue)

 

[Natsumi Lam]

John 7:6-10 NLT
Jesus replied, "Now is not the right time for me to go, but you can go anytime. [7] The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil. [8] You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." [9] After saying these things, Jesus remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view.

I think Jesus was lying. Therefore he sinned. Therefore he is not the perfect sacrifice. What is your opinion?
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".

It is saying it is not yet Jesus time to go to the feast because it may be a catalyst for too much commotion at the feast. It was fine for the disciples to go at anytime. The word yet makes a big difference in that He said he is not going yet rather than not going at all.

So Jesus wasnt lying if you use the KJV

John 7:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

 

[St. Helens]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Kaon]

John 7:6-10 NLT
Jesus replied, "Now is not the right time for me to go, but you can go anytime. [7] The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil. [8] You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." [9] After saying these things, Jesus remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view.

I think Jesus was lying. Therefore he sinned. Therefore he is not the perfect sacrifice. What is your opinion?
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".

His "brothers" didn't get it; it was not His time yet. He pithily laid out exactly why He couldn't be seen at that festival. And, so does John 7:

Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
- John 7:11 - 13
​

If the Redeemer went to that party, at that time - in the open with His brothers - then they would have tried to murder Him there. He is well aware of prophecy and the Word of God because He is the literal Living Word of God. That is why while the party was going on, He did what He was supposed to do:

Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. John 7:14​

The implication that He lied may come from the description about what He did after He told His brothers He wasn't going to the event - which was He went. Or, rather, He scoped things out (for the safety of His brothers, and reconnaissance). It wasn't like he was partying.

 

[LouiseChar]

I am rooting for Jesus, but this passage just made me question his innocence.

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread to see if this has be solved but can I just say-humans are annoying lol.

For me it's simple. Like all other chapters you have to read the whole thing for context to be understood. After reading John 7:37-38 it's clear why his "time had not yet come" when his brothers wanted him to go publicly.

The festival lasts for several days. Verse 37-38 says "37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoeverbelieves in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streamsof living water will flow from within him.’”


I mean, isn't it clear that God's timing for him to go publicly was on the last day, THE GREATEST DAY, and not when his unbelieving brothers thought he ought to have gone publicly to satisfy all naysayers?

 

[1213]

...
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".

Yes, and I think that is the very important word that makes it not a lie. It was not yet his time, it doesn’t mean that he will not go at all.