Did Jesus lie?

[mark kennedy]

Jesus went "in secret."

That is deception, regardless of the timing.

Because he didn't tell anyone, that's his business whether or not he lets someone know. By the eighth chapter he is making very public statements and really gets into it with the Pharisees. He is withdrawing from the crowds, starting to focus on his disciples and his enemies.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No word from God is void.

The reason it's impossible for God Himself to lie is because creation instantly reshapes itself to His pronouncements, so that whatever He says becomes the truth as He says it.

Jesus did, indeed, deceive His brothers, but the error you're making is thinking that deception in general is a sin, which is not the case. Tactical deception against the enemy not a sin, but is actually lauded by God and even directed by God.

Deception becomes a sin when you deceive someone to whom you owe the truth, and that is how it is presented and practiced throughout scripture.

God is not the author of confusion. The tactic of deception is a tactic of the enemy, used in the garden. There is a difference between deceitful tactics and “shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves” and exercising prudence. God can and does bring "strong delusions" and the judgments of giving sinners over to self-deception and seared consciences.

 

[RDKirk]

God is not the author of confusion. The tactic of deception is a tactic of the enemy, used in the garden. There is a difference between deceitful tactics and “shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves” and exercising prudence. God can and does bring "strong delusions" and the judgments of giving sinners over to self-deception and seared consciences.

“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’

18 “The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ -- Exodus 3

That "three-day journey" part was a lie, directed by God to be told to the pharaoh.

 

[redleghunter]

John 7:6-10 NLT
Jesus replied, "Now is not the right time for me to go, but you can go anytime. [7] The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil. [8] You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." [9] After saying these things, Jesus remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view.

I think Jesus was lying. Therefore he sinned. Therefore he is not the perfect sacrifice. What is your opinion?
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".

Why didn’t you include verses 1-5? I think that explains a lot.

 

[redleghunter]

“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’

18 “The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ -- Exodus 3

That "three-day journey" part was a lie, directed by God to be told to the pharaoh.

Or this was possibly a Divine “escalation of force.”

 

[mark kennedy]

“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’

18 “The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ -- Exodus 3

That "three-day journey" part was a lie, directed by God to be told to the pharaoh.

Which part, the part where God says he has watched their misery or where he demands they let them make sacrifices? I really don't see anything remotely deceptive here.

 

[RDKirk]

Which part, the part where God says he has watched their misery or where he demands they let them make sacrifices? I really don't see anything remotely deceptive here.

And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.
....
Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.
....
Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’

"Let" as in ask for permission to offer sacrifices to the God of the Hebrews outside of Egypt. I think this might have to do with justification for the judgement of God on the Egyptians, a justification in human terms that humans can understand and relate to. In other words, God said to let my people sacrifice to Him, so defiance against this request is defiance against God Himself.

The context that follows is:

19 “But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 “So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.

So the Lord is telling Moses to make the request, but the request will be denied.

 

[mark kennedy]

And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.
....
Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’

Initially God demands Pharaoh let them go out into the wilderness for three days, later God demanded, Let my people go. There's nothing deceptive about that, it's a progression in the narrative, there's no deception.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Initially God demands Pharaoh let them go out into the wilderness for three days, later God demanded, Let my people go. There's nothing deceptive about that, it's a progression in the narrative, there's no deception.

If there is deception involved, it would be in Pharaoh leading the Hebrews into thinking he wanted them to leave permanently, only to catch them all, women and children out in the open, to slaughter them with his armies. Through this turn of events progression came, not that the Lord has a change of mind, nor that the Hebrews disobeyed by staying in the wilderness for more than three days, but rather this was all an open display of the might and power of God, of His providence for His people.

 

[RDKirk]

Initially God demands Pharaoh let them go out into the wilderness for three days, later God demanded, Let my people go. There's nothing deceptive about that, it's a progression in the narrative, there's no deception.

The two parts of that statement were made at the same time. God told Moses to tell the leaders of the Hebrews one thing, and that they were to immediately go to pharaoh and tell him something different.

 

[eleos1954]

John 7:6-10 NLT
Jesus replied, "Now is not the right time for me to go, but you can go anytime. [7] The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil. [8] You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." [9] After saying these things, Jesus remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view.

I think Jesus was lying. Therefore he sinned. Therefore he is not the perfect sacrifice. What is your opinion?
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".

No Jesus didn't lie ... and Jesus did not sin.

It says "Now is not the right time for me to go" the right time for Him to go was later so He could stay out of public view.

 

[redleghunter]

The two parts of that statement were made at the same time. God told Moses to tell the leaders of the Hebrews one thing, and that they were to immediately go to pharaoh and tell him something different.

Deception or Divine compartmentalization? Meaning even YHWH is allowed to establish “need to know.”

I’m sure you are familiar with this.

 

[redleghunter]

No Jesus didn't lie ... and Jesus did not sin.

It says "Now is not the right time for me to go" the right time for Him to go was later so He could stay out of public view.

Agree. If verses 1-5 are included this becomes abundantly clear.

 

[RDKirk]

Deception or Divine compartmentalization? Meaning even YHWH is allowed to establish “need to know.”

I’m sure you are familiar with this.

Oh, God for sure practices "need to know" (Matthew 24:6), but He also practices tactical deception. Rahab did not sin at all. The Hebrew midwives did not sin at all. Their tactical deceptions were righteous acts.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, God for sure practices "need to know" (Matthew 24:6), but He also practices tactical deception. Rahab did not sin at all. The Hebrew midwives did not sin at all. Their tactical deceptions were righteous acts.

Withholding information from some while divulging it to others is not deception but good OPSEC.

 

[RDKirk]

Withholding information from some while divulging it to others is not deception but good OPSEC.

God and His people, however, still do practice CCD: Camouflage, concealment, and deception.

 

[redleghunter]

God and His people, however, still do practice CCD: Camouflage, concealment, and deception.

I think the military types get that. You might be concerning others.

 

[mark kennedy]

The two parts of that statement were made at the same time. God told Moses to tell the leaders of the Hebrews one thing, and that they were to immediately go to pharaoh and tell him something different.

Yet both statements are true.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

A couple of people come to mind...Rahab and Samson.

In the case of both they were sinners like you and I. Rahab was a gentile, and a prostitute, for her to use deception by lying should not come as a surprise. Joshua sent spies, and God providentially made it so they went to this particular woman's house, which led to the preservation of the nation of Israel. We should remember, all sinners have lied to deceive. But...

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, never sinned. Deception involves lies, an intent to deceive, to trick, to fool, it is devious behavior, it is sinful behavior. In the book of Hebrews we read "it is impossible for God to lie". This is because His nature is pure and Holy, to lie would be to contradict His own nature, and it would mean He is less than God. So it is important to maintain a Creator - creation distinction when considering the actions of sinful humans and the actions of a Holy God. Also the sovereign free will of God, by which He is under no obligation to reveal anything to anyone, but does so out of mercy for the purposes of accomplishing His will.

Jesus was both God and man, and as a man could be tempted and die, God cannot do either, so Jesus could also mislead.

Previously I quoted the OT where an angel of light volunteers at God's call to deceive the king.

Where does it say, thou shalt not lie?