Did Jesus die for all?

[devoted]

Well, by all means, if all we need is to be baptized to be regenerated then our salvation is based on our works

 Our salvation is based on Jesus coming into the world and dyeing on the cross so that sins may be forgiven. Baptism is what Jesus commanded his apostles to do, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit"

Baptism is regeneration not a work. We are born again in the waters of baptism, just as Jesus said we would be "you must be born of both water and spirit" This in no way says that the water is the thing that saves us, what saves us is Jesus, the water is the tool in which GOD chooses to use to have us pass from life to death. God uses this imagery through out the New Testament, especially at the cross when the centurion pierced the side of Jesus after his death, where blood and water flowed from his side. This is symbolizes us being freed by the water and blood in which we are washed clean in baptism, this also is testimony to us dyeing with Jesus in baptism and rising with him to new life. The water symbolizes regeneration, the blood symbolizes remission of sin they both symbolize that baptism is seeped in the mystery of the cross from where all salvation comes.

But again one must look at this in the light of it is a remission of original sin, a washing clean of Adam’s sin. I am not guilty personally of his sin so I am not going to lose salvation for his sin, but I am not born with the grace from God to "see the kingdom" because of his sin, there is a big difference in this.

We baptize infants because they are born with out the grace to enter heaven due to the sin of Adam. Jesus’ death on the cross was a totally free gift of freedom from original sin, the sin that holds us all bound until we become "born again." We are born again in baptism, this is in no way a work, it is claiming our inheritance as Children of God, and we are the rightful heirs.

Since infants are born with original sin (not personal sin) they too have a need for salvation if they are going to "see the kingdom" and since salvation is free and we can’t earn it, I can not earn liberation from Adam’s sin, especially since I am not the cause of his sin, only the benefactor of his sin, it is only logical to include infants in being regenerated, it would be crazy not to. If a infant can not receive a free gift that they in no way could earn; even if they were at a age of reason, then the gift really isn’t free is it? If we have to "do something" like repent or believe in order to be saved from something that we are not responsible for in the first place then how is salvation free? It then becomes something that is too be earned and not given.

When we baptize we are asked the question "what is it that you seek from God’s church" and the response is "faith!" We are seeking faith, not earning faith, there is a difference with this. We are seeking to impart faith in this infant by nurturing the free gift, we seek to impart faith in ourselves by nurturing our free gift of salvation. Baptism freely imparts faith and the Holy Spirit in a soul that has been regenerated by this sacrament. St. Paul referred to this as "We have been given the first installment of the Holy Spirit" of the promise.

Now in light of this explanation, why don’t you go back and re read the post in which the text was a quote taken from the CCC, explain the Catholic doctrine of baptism.

 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by devoted
Our salvation is based on Jesus coming into the world and dyeing on the cross so that sins may be forgiven.

This is so incongruous to me.  He didn't come so that we "may" be forgiven.  He came and we are forgiven.  We live in a state of forgiveness.

Baptism is what Jesus commanded his apostles to do, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit"

I didn't say we shouldn't do it.  I said it wasn't what accomplished our salvation. 

Baptism is regeneration not a work.

LOL!  Can you be saved without it?  If baptism is THE tool in which God chooses to save us then why did Jesus have to die?  What did His death accomplish for you SPECIFICALLY?

But again one must look at this in the light of it is a remission of original sin, a washing clean of Adam’s sin. I am not guilty personally of his sin so I am not going to lose salvation for his sin, but I am not born with the grace from God to "see the kingdom" because of his sin, there is a big difference in this.

You're not going to "lose your salvation for his sin?"  You act as if salvation was something you had that you lost on your own merit.  On the contrary, man is born separated from God due to the representative actions of the first man, Adam.  Salvation wasn't something you had and lost because of the sin of Adam.  You did indeed suffer the condemning actions of Adam.  And, if you are saved, it is because Christ kept the Law and condemned sin in the flesh.  It's by His works you are saved, not your's.

We baptize infants because they are born with out the grace to enter heaven due to the sin of Adam.

Now wait a minute.  You just said since you are "not guilty personally of his sin" you aren't "going to lose salvation for his sin."

Jesus’ death on the cross was a totally free gift of freedom from original sin, the sin that holds us all bound until we become "born again."

Geesh you are confusing in your posts.  Jesus' death set you free from something that stills holds you bound until you are born again?  Are you free or are you bound?  Which is it?

We are born again in baptism, this is in no way a work, it is claiming our inheritance as Children of God, and we are the rightful heirs.

Okay.  How do you claim your inheritance.  Is it something you do?  If so, how is that not a work? 

Since infants are born with original sin (not personal sin) they too have a need for salvation if they are going to "see the kingdom" and since salvation is free and we can’t earn it, I can not earn liberation from Adam’s sin, especially since I am not the cause of his sin, only the benefactor of his sin, it is only logical to include infants in being regenerated, it would be crazy not to. If a infant can not receive a free gift that they in no way could earn; even if they were at a age of reason, then the gift really isn’t free is it?

Huh?  How do you "include infants in being regenerated?"  You act as if you control who is regenerated and who isn't.  FYI, I never said that infants don't receive God's salvitic love.  I'm just telling you that it is by the grace of God that they do, if they do, not by getting baptized.

If we have to "do something" like repent or believe in order to be saved from something that we are not responsible for in the first place then how is salvation free? It then becomes something that is too be earned and not given.

Uh, exactly.  You're the one putting so much salvitic importance on our being baptized.

We are seeking to impart faith in this infant by nurturing the free gift, we seek to impart faith in ourselves by nurturing our free gift of salvation.

Good God man, do you attribute any spiritual growth to God?  The reason we have faith, the reason our faith grows, the reason we can live according to our faith is because God brings that about.  "Impart faith in ourselves?"  That doesn't even make any sense.  If you are the one doing the imparting then how can you be the one receiving.  God imparts, we receive, period.

Now in light of this explanation, why don’t you go back and re read the post in which the text was a quote taken from the CCC, explain the Catholic doctrine of baptism.

"Incorporated into Christ by Baptism"

No.  We are incorporated into Christ by the grace of the Father through the death of Christ.  Baptism is a result of our realization of the grace of God, not a means to obtaining it.

You know what?  The rest of those quotes are just as anthropocentric and could be answered basically the same way, so just apply my response to every part of those quotes.

God bless

 

[eldermike]

John 17:20 holds the answer to the issue. You have to read all of the prayer to understand, so I included it below. Jesus said it was for all that would believe, He also thanked the Father for the ones that had believed.
So: God decides who will believe and Jesus died for those.

The process is clear: If you want someone to believe, pray for them, that is what Jesus did. So we do have a part to play, we are too witness and pray. But the decision is God's alone who will believe. It is by the grace of God that we are saved.



JN 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

JN 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

JN 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

JN 17:13 "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

JN 17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

JN 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

JN 17:25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

JN 18:1 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it.

 

[Outspoken]

"But the decision is God's alone who will believe. It is by the grace of God that we are saved."

Exactly Its God's work, not ours, Christ is the founder and perfector of our faith. The only real choice we have is to allow it or not.

 

[devoted]

 

LOL! Can you be saved without it? If baptism is THE tool in which God chooses to save us then why did Jesus have to die? What did His death accomplish for you SPECIFICALLY?

I never said it Baptism is a tool. I said that the water used in baptism is a tool that God uses.

Prefigurations of Baptism in the Old Covenant

1217 In the liturgy of the Easter Vigil, during the blessing of the baptismal water, the Church solemnly commemorates the great events in salvation history that already prefigured the mystery of Baptism:
Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power.
In Baptism we use your gift of water, which you have made a rich symbol of the grace you give us in this sacrament.[11] 1218 Since the beginning of the world, water, so humble and wonderful a creature, has been the source of life and fruitfulness. Sacred Scripture sees it as "oveshadowed" by the Spirit of God:[12]
At the very dawn of creation your Spirit breathed on the waters, making them the wellspring of all holiness.[13] 1219 The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":[14]
The waters of the great flood you made a sign of the waters of Baptism, that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.[15] 1220 If water springing up from the earth symbolizes life, the water of the sea is a symbol of death and so can represent the mystery of the cross. By this symbolism Baptism signifies communion with Christ's death. 1221 But above all, the crossing of the Red Sea, literally the liberation of Israel from the slavery of Egypt, announces the liberation wrought by Baptism:
You freed the children of Abraham from the slavery of Pharaoh, bringing them dry-shod through the waters of the Red Sea, to be an image of the people set free in Baptism.[16] 1222 Finally, Baptism is prefigured in the crossing of the Jordan River by which the People of God received the gift of the land promised to Abraham's descendants, an image of eternal life. The promise of this blessed inheritance is fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Christ's Baptism

1223 All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan.[17] After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."[18] 1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."[19] Jesus' gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.[20] The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son."[21] 1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized.[22] The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.[23] From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"[24] in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
See where you are baptized, see where Baptism comes from, if not from the cross of Christ, from his death. There is the whole mystery: he died for you. In him you are redeemed, in him you are saved.[25]

 

[repentandbelieve]

2 Cor 5:15 clearly answers this question by stating " and He died for all."

 

[Andrew]

Amen repentandbelieve, simple and to the point

 

[Outspoken]

"2 Cor 5:15 "

please read the passage. Have all died the way christ did? Nope. Christ died that all may choose him, but he didn't die for all, he died for his church.

 

[repentandbelieve]

To those who do not believe Jesus' death was in vain. But the power in His blood is more than sufficient for all.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Correction: that should have read ,
To those who do not believe, Jesus' death was in vain.

 

[mellymell]

In the question, the word "for" implies the actual reason that something was done, whether it's taken advantage of or not. With that in mind, Christ died FOR everyone, but only SOME will take advantage of the gift of salvation. His death gives everyone the RIGHT to salvation, but it doesn't automatically mean that everyone is saved.

Hope that helps.
I love you and God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
Exactly Its God's work, not ours, Christ is the founder and perfector of our faith. The only real choice we have is to allow it or not.

Allow what?  Allow God to do His Will?  Doesn't that seem the least bit presumptuous to you?  That God needs His creation to "allow" Him to do His own Will, IMO, denies the sovereignty of God.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by devoted
I never said it Baptism is a tool. I said that the water used in baptism is a tool that God uses.

Oooohhh...it's the water.  Well, that clears everything up.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by repentandbelieve
Correction: that should have read ,
To those who do not believe, Jesus' death was in vain.

This is utter blaspheme in my opinion.  To imply that Christ purposed one thing but because of the response of man that Christ's death was "in vain" is to state that God was ineffectual in the purpose for which He sent the Son.

"A famous bumper-sticker reads as follows: "God says it.  I believe it.  That settles it."

What is wrong with this statement?  It adds an element that is unsound.  It suggests that the matter of biblical authority is not settled until the person believes the Bible.  The slogan should read: "God says it.  That settles it."

* Grace Unknown - R. C. Sproul

If God puposed or intended something, then to say that the efficacy of His action of sending the Son is dependant on the response of the creation is to say that God's Will is subject to man's actions.  Utter blaspheme.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by repentandbelieve
To those who do not believe Jesus' death was in vain. But the power in His blood is more than sufficient for all.

The effectiveness of His death is not an issue of sufficiency.  It is an issue of intent.  All those that the Father gives

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me WILL COME to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Not can, will.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by mellymell
In the question, the word "for" implies the actual reason that something was done, whether it's taken advantage of or not. With that in mind, Christ died FOR everyone, but only SOME will take advantage of the gift of salvation. His death gives everyone the RIGHT to salvation, but it doesn't automatically mean that everyone is saved.

Hope that helps.
I love you and God bless.

If all the death of God incarnate did was give you the "right to salvation" then His death didn't save you and you are, instead, saved because of something you do.  That bodly contradicts the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8,9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God bless

 

[Andrew]

Utter blaspheme.

Which is more blasphemous? to say that God so loved the elect and sent His Son to save elect sinners, or to say that God so loved the world and sent his Son to save sinful man?

The answer is obvious from the poll results : 24 to 3

 

[Outspoken]

"Allow God to do His Will? Doesn't that seem the least bit presumptuous to you? "

Nope, not at all, he gave me that "power" when he created me, its called free will. Judus had it, as did Peter. I have to allow God to do his work in me.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Andrew
Which is more blasphemous? to say that God so loved the elect and sent His Son to save elect sinners, or to say that God so loved the world and sent his Son to save sinful man?

The answer is obvious from the poll results : 24 to 3

Well, by all means, let's base our beliefs on "the poll results" rather than the Word that says that shows that God is sovereign over all His creation. 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
I have to allow God to do his work in me.

Geesh.