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Did Jesus die for all?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Andrew, Dec 10, 2002.

  1. Jesus died for everyone.

  2. Jesus died only for some.

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  1. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "The elect deal that's being pushed by what? 3 people out of 19, does not fit into this at all. "

    Just a thought, under this Logic Jesus was just a kid from bethleham, so he isn't worth anything either huh? Might wanna rethink that ;)
     
  2. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy New Member

    32
    +0
    Protestant
    Outspoken,

    Or even better, there was John 1:44-46 :D

    /p

    p.s. nLimitedAtonementSupporters++
     
  3. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

    323
    +6
    Calvinist
    First off, if God loves everyone the same; then why did He condemn Esau, even using the terminology "Esau I have hated"?  If He loves everyone the same, then why does He allow them to go to hell?  Does He have the power to stop them from going to hell?  If so, would a loving Father still allow one of His children to be consumed by the fires of hell?  No, because not all are His children, most remain the children of wrath. 
    I think we have alot of misconceptions about hell.  Many think that hell is a place where satan gets to punish all those who have followed him.  No, I say that hell is a place where God punishes those who the cross does not cover.  You claim that we serve different gods with different attributes.  No, I say you cannot accept the love of God without the wrath of God; for they are interchangeable.  Without God's wrath poured out upon Christ, He could bestow no love upon us; if He did give us His love without that wrath, that would be injustice.  You apparently don't serve a God of wrath, but I fail to see how that is possible.  Romans 9 can be twisted into countless directions, but the truth remains of what it says.  You say it is all about our decision; but I say only God can cause us to make that decision?  Did Jacob of his own accord make a decision for God?  Or did God have to personally wrestle with him to cause him to do His will?


    Here's a plea for you.  You like using greek words like agape, why don't you do a greek study on John 6:44- "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."  Look up the word draw and see what you find.
    I'll give you hint...the same greek word is used in James 2:6 nad Acts 16:9.
    God does not drag people kicking and screaming into heaven, but the would never choose Him unless He first did a mighty work in them.

    And speaking of the o.t. quoting extra-canonical sources...do you believe the bible to be fallible?  Do you disagree with the stance of "scripture alone"?  Sorry, I'll let scripture bind my conscience, I believe it to be the infallibe Word of God.  I think many need to meditate on John ch's 6-10, and all the epistles of Paul.  I don't hold it against anyone who does not agree with the doctrine of particular redemption, I know it's a hard doctrine for us carnal people to accept, but I truly feel that Christ would be a failure if people He died for will suffer in eternal torment.  To say that Christ loves the average every day pagan as much as He loves you or me is the only thing I can't see as in accord with God's nature.  We were all dead in trespasses, it's only He who has the power to make us alive.

    Grace to you.
     
  4. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,327
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Reformationist, 

    Then are you saying that God "makes" us think what He wants us to think? 

    Also, once one has the Godly desire to please God, how do they get saved?
     
  5. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    Sola fide -

    First of all the proper translation is Esau I have DESPISED. Hated is the wrong word.

    Why does he allow them to go to hell? Because he loves them. He loves them enough to let them have the life and afterlife that they CHOSE. Here's a thought - God doesn't send ANYONE to hell. Those in hell send themselves there. A child of darkness when he dies will flee from the light because the light is alien to him. Christ the Light of the world dwells in heaven. A child of darkness will flee heaven to hell because that is what they have chosen. They have rejected Christ and his light in life why would they suddenly wish to be with him in death?? The only difference is in death they know what it is they have chosen.

    You are right. We do have misconceptions about hell - you included. There is no man in a red suit with horns and a tail tormenting souls in hell. The only person tormenting those in hell are those people themselves. Hell is not a place of physical fire. The Fire that burns in hell is a fire of desire and shame, desire for the things of darkness which ruled them in life, and shame for rejecting Christ. I don't understand how it is that the notion of being burned by physical fire ever entered into the faith. :sigh: How is a SPIRIT going to be burn by flames?? You notion that God punishes those in hell is twisted. The God of LOVE does not torment and torture souls in hell.

    Brother, Saying God is a God of love does not mean he is hearts and flowers or peaches and cream. YES there is justice and correction connected to God's love, but he STILL loves us all yes even Esau.


    YES I believe the Scriptures to be without error and truthfully recorded. Do I believe in scripture alone?? NO. Without question or hesitation NO. God did not hand us the scriptures from out of a vacuum. He hand them to us out of HISTORY. We cannot separate tradition from scriptures without weakening the scriptures. Scripture itself tells us that to validate truth, TWO or more witnesses are required. If scripture stands alone, where are the two witnesses to verify Scripture? The Holy Spirit is one witness where is the second? If God had intended the scriptures to stand alone, being SOVEREIGN - as Calvinists are fond of pointing out - He has in his power the ability to do what ever he wants. If he wanted scripture to stand alone, why would a sovereign God allow the scriptures to quote from or refer to extra canonical texts?


    Pax et bonum
    God bless you Brother :)
     
  6. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    I don't know what you asking here. 

    No.  One has a godly desire to please God only after God saves them.  Prior to that there is no righteousness within us.

    God bless
     
  7. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
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    It doesn't matter.  The meaning is the same.  Biblical love is giving the recipient what they most need with no regard for yourself.  Biblical hate isn't proactive.  It just means not giving the recipient what they most need with no regard for yourself.  I'll give you an example:

    Proverbs 13:24
    He who spares his rod hates his son,
            But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

    That doesn't mean the dad actively hates his son.  It means that he is not giving him that which he most needs, discipline.

    In the case of Jacob and Esau what they most needed was redemption.  That verse simply means "To Jacob I have given my salvitic love, to Esau I have not."

    What??!!!  That has got to be the most proposterous thing I've ever heard.  God loves someone so much that He gives them the opportunity to burn in hell for eternity?  I don't even know how you typed that in without thinking that it sounded ridiculous.  Look man, when God loves someone, that means He gives them His salvitic love.  He makes sure they are saved.  The reason He is the one to make sure that they are saved is because He is the one who saves them.  Your statement ranks right up there with wifebeaters who say, "Honey I love you so much I'm gonna punch you in the mouth."  How in the world do you think giving someone the choice to go to hell is a loving one.  Even if you discount the Fall and believe that man is free to make a decision for or against God the thought that God provides a way for someone He loves to burn in the fiery torments of hell for all eternity is just plain ridiculous.  I am blown away when people say, "It's not real love if I don't return it willingly."  How silly.  You were dead.  You were fallen.  You were depraved.  How in the world do you think you could just overcome that and all of a sudden return God's love?  And don't tell me "by the grace of God" because if the result of God's grace is someone returning God's love and you believe all people get God's grace then everyone would return God's love. 

    I was wrong.  This is even more proposterous.  Who judges all men?  Does God say, "Okay, you rejected me.  What do you think should happen?"  NOOOOO!!!  He says, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"  What do you think He means by "depart from Me?"  Do you think He's saying, "Hey, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here?"

    I'm not sure what you're talking about in particular but you must understand that Scripture is divinely inspired text that is given by men of God to people who oftentimes had difficulty understanding things that went against what they had been taught.  Oftentimes it was helpful to point to certain literary texts to help convey a message.  That doesn't mean that the literary text is Scripture.  It just helps convey what the Apostles were teaching.

    God bless
     
  8. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,327
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    I understood you to say that we are regenerated by God.  Then, after we are regenerated, we have the desire to please God.  And, the only reason we have that desire is because God gave it to us.

    I'm still a little bit stuck on the word regenerted.  How does one become regenerated?  Is it God, making us desire to please Him?  If so, then is He "making" us think what He wants us to think?  Such as:  I desire to be pleasing to God (what God wants) vs I don't care what God wants (what God does not want)

    And where does getting saved come into being?

    I'm really not trying to argue.  I'm trying to understand what you're saying.  I appreciate your patience.
     
  9. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    Ref: No despise and hate are not the same thing at all. If they were the same thing they would be the exact same word.

    DESPISE - 1 : to look down on with contempt or aversion 2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful

    HATE - 1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING
     
  10. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    I'll reply to the rest of what you posted when I get home this evening reformationist :)

    God bless until then.
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    Single
    Absolutely correct. 

    Regeneration is the act of God alone, in which He renews the human heart, making it alive when it was dead.  In regeneration, God acts at the origin and deepest point of the human person.  This means that there is no preparation, no preceding disposition in a sinner that requests or contributes to the new life given by God.

    Regeneration is necessary because all descendants of Adam and Eve have inherited their sin and are morally unable to do what is good.  Paul wrote to the Ephesians that people are by nature dead in trespasses and sins.  In this state, they are without God and without hope in the world.  Not in response to their merit, but freely and in love, God speaks the word that raises the dead.

    The classic verses of John 3 that use the language of being "born again" or being "born from above" give the outlines of regenerationtheir sharpest edge.  Jesus says that unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of Heaven.  Without the grace of God, sinners cannot find the door, let alone force their way in.  Elsewhere Jesus said, "Without me, you can do nothing"; and in speaking about salvation, "Without God, nothing is possible."

    Jesus showed surprise that Nicodemus was puzzled by the demand to be born again.  Nicodemus should have understood from the OT that he was a sinner, and in need of new life; and he must have known the prophets, who promised that God would remove their hearts of flesh and replace them with hearts ready to do God's will.  God would raise the dead, give sight to the blind, and preach the good news to those who could not save themselves.

    Regeneration is the gift of God's grace.  It is the immediate, supernatural work of the Holy Spirit wrought in us.  Its effect is to quicken us to spiritual life from spiritual death.  it changes the disposition of our souls, inclining our hearts to God.  The fruit of regeneration is faith.  Regeneration precedes faith.

    This was an explanation of regeneration from a theological exposition in my Bible.  It just explained it much better than I could have.

    Desiring to please God is the natural fruit of regeneration.  God gives us a new heart that desires to please.  Obviously sometimes we desire to please our flesh more than we desire to please God but as any saved person knows, that desire to please God is something that increases as we grow in maturity.

    I wish He would.  I know how fallen my motives often are if I'm relying on my own wisdom.

    At the Cross.  Being saved is a judgment.  It means that we have been saved from the penalty and guilt of the our transgressions.  That's why I'm always so confused when Catholics say, "We are not saved until we are judged."  I couldn't imagine going throughout my entire life wondering if I was going to hell. 

    Not at all.  I think you are being very amiable. :)

    God bless
     
  12. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    Ref: God Loves us enough to let us choose for ourselves. He loves us enough not to force us to do anything. He loves us enough to allow us to go to yes go to hell if that is truly what we desire. HE will give us all the chances he can in life to chose other than hell, but if it is our goal to burn in hell he will allow us to achieve that goal. That's true love. True loves seeks our best, does what it can to achieve our bests but respects our choices enough to allow us the results of them.



    As far as the "depart from me quotation - that again is from the Judgement and not yet applicable. LOOK - it's a matter of the nature of a thing. Lift a rock and expose what lies underneath to the light and what happens? Do they stand up and say hey light - I think I like this stuff . . . NO the creepy crawlies scurry back into darkness. :) natural laws are a reflection of Spiritual laws Creatures of darkness are DRAWN to darkness and are repelled by the light. No one goes to hell kicking and screaming - they go there because that is what they KNOW.



    AS far as scripture goes - my point is this - IF GOD had intended scripture to be a stand alone work he would have made it a self-contained work. There would be no reference to Enoch in the book of Jude, no reference to The Book of the Wars of YAHWEH in Number 21:14, to the book of the Just in Josh 10:13, the book of the acts of Solomon in 1 KGS 11:41, The history of Nathan the Prophet in 2 Chr 9:29 ETC. The texts listed above are LOST to us. But the Authors of and thus Scripture itself place wright and importance upon these works. :)


    I guess what I'm speaking of is to mystical for you. sorry.
     
  13. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

    323
    +6
    Calvinist
    "God loves us enough to let us choose for ourselves."

    This is the notion that is to its very core at odds with the teachings of Scripture. The Bible tells us that we are spiritually DEAD, unable to "choose" God of our own selves (Rom. 3, Eph. 2, etc.).
    If we are unable to seek after God, then we inevitably cannot choose Him. If we do not have to moral or spiritual ability to choose Him, then He MUST work within us to bring us to Himself. This is why we must be regenerated, as Reformationist has been talking about.
    Until everyone realizes that we are all spiritually dead as unregenerates, then there is no way you will understand this doctrine. Name one person in the Bible who just came looking for God without God first doing a work in them. It's just not there. It's Him who quickens His people so that they may have spiritual life and seek Him. We have no power to do so, being that we all died in Adam. If that's the case, "it's not of him who wills or runs, but of God who shows mercy." He has mercy on who He will have mercy, and whoever He wishes to harden, He hardens; we have no right to question His righteous and sovereign decisions.

    Grace to you.
     
  14. hugoguttman

    hugoguttman Member

    202
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Some Bible explains this:
    Yes. That´s correct. Regeneration is the gift of God´s Grace.

    Some guys wrote this:
    I wouldn´t use the word PLEASE. Why not? That´s simple. If I use Please... I think I will be returning to the LAW.
    Are you guys saying that if I think... let´s do it to please God and make Him to love me much more than He does right now... Am I not turning back to the law? I am not saying...so let´s not do good things. NO. What I am trying to say is: let´s do good things, BUT NOT FOR PLEASING GOD!!!
    That´s right. Regeneration inclines our hearts to God. My heart is AVAILABLE to God´s will. THAT IS WHAT I CALL GRATIA!!! To have my heart inclined to God... I´m available... I am afraid of you...I just want You to use my heart, my thoughts, my feelings the way you want... because It is writen:
    for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
    Filipenses 2:13
    Not you my dear friends!!! Jesus Christ of Nazareth in our hearts having communion with our celestial Father. Glory to Jesus!!!
    Pax.
    Hugo.
     
  15. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,327
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Thank you Reformationist,

    I appreciate your time and your knowledge of the Word.

    Be blessed! :hug:
     
  16. devoted

    devoted Active Member

    510
    +0
      
    (because all have sinned, then all the more reason for Jesus to die for all.) 

     

    TROUGH BAPTISM, Baptism imparts regeneration and ANYONE can receieve baptism, especially infants. Because Jesus said NO ONE comes to the Father but by me, so that includes infants and children as well, and as in the above quote, ALL have sinned, ALL are born into sin, this would mean that infants have the need to be regenerated too.

    John 3:5
    Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
    5
    Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, NO ONE can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit

    I would seriously think NO ONE includes infants and children.

    CCC:

    An indelible spiritual mark . . .
    1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.[82] Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

    1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.[83] The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.[84]

    1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."[85] "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."[86] The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"[87] with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
     
  17. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    Single
    Thanks so much! :)

    Let me make one point that is very important.  I am studying and learning God's Word just like everyone else here.  If I happen to occasionally say things that are in opposition to something else I profess I can only account it to an ignorance on my part about the Word.  I pray that God deeply blesses each of you in this time in which we can focus on Him.

    God bless,

    Don
     
  18. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    This anthropocentric view of the work of Christ is where you have gone astray.  Mankind's disposition is not the basis for God's redemptive work.  Rather, it is the glory of God for which Jesus was sent. 

    Well, by all means, if all we need is to be baptized to be regenerated then our salvation is based on our works and all we really need to do is go around splashing water on people and then we can be assured of their salvation.  No.  I don't think so. 

    Of course it includes infants.  But, the thing you so strenuously contend works against your position.  Look at the verse you so conveniently left out:

    John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, HE CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God."

    Yet you contend that the reason you acknowledged God and became "born again" is because you could see the Truth in God's Word.  Scripture clearly notes that unless you are "born again" you can't even "see" the Kingdom of God, much less turn to it in acknowledgement and supplication.

    Are these Catholic texts?  If so, what impact did you believe they would have upon those who give no credence to such man derived documents? :scratch:  That would be akin to me going into the "One Bread" forum and expecting the participating Catholics to acknowledge my position because of the Westminster Confession of Faith.

    God bless
     
  19. hugoguttman

    hugoguttman Member

    202
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Hey!!! Reformationist. God bless you!!!
    Well, most people come here or other christian places to learn different oppinions regarding the Word of God. Thanks God there are places such like this on the web in which whe can post our oppinions and learn from others with good and nice discussions.
    Hugo. :)
     
  20. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
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    Single
    God bless you too!!

    I'm not sure if this was in reference to my statement about the Catholic texts but if so, my point was not that they aren't written by learned men of God, rather that in presenting a Catholic document to support a position hardly makes any sense in a reformed, non-Cathlic forum.  Again, I meant no offense.  I just didn't see the merit in it.  There is definitely a place for presenting such proof texts.  That would be the PCJ forum.

    God bless 
     
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