Did Jesus die for all?

[Reformationist]

<DIV>

Originally posted by Br. Max
The gift of salvation is there for all who will come unto Christ, yes even reformationist and he will save all who receive the gift of salvation. Many will NOT come unto Christ. Does that mean he did not die for them? No. It means that they are not covered by his death.

This is hindsight doubletalk.&nbsp; Limited atonement doesn't state that Christ's death was limited in value.&nbsp; It says it's limited in purpose.&nbsp; I say that the reason fallen man remains fallen is because the only one who redeems didn't do it.&nbsp; Therefore, those that will not be saved, whoever they are, were not covered by His death.&nbsp; You say, because they didn't accept Christ then His death didn't cover them.&nbsp; You're so focused on whether man has a choice to come to God you don't even seem to realize that man is fallen.&nbsp; Man is God's enemy.&nbsp; The only reason man is saved is because God has mercy on him.&nbsp; God is the sovereign Creator.&nbsp; It is His perrogative to deal with His creation as He sees fit.&nbsp; You act as if God is obligated to grace man.&nbsp; He's not.&nbsp; The fact that He doesn't redeem some fallen people isn't unfair.&nbsp; Truth be told, the unfair part is that He gives some what they don't desire or deserve.&nbsp; You believe man is saved because they seek after God and repent.&nbsp; It's all about the works with you.&nbsp; We're saved by grace Max.&nbsp; If you're saved because of anything you do, it's not grace.&nbsp; You earned it.&nbsp; It ceases to be grace.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>God bless</DIV>

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Everything in this post is a quote from AOMIN.org

Why would Christ die for the world if God did not intend to save everyone? The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved.

...You believe Christ can die in someone's place and yet that person remain lost for eternity.

The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons... while the Arminian limits the power of it in that he says it in itself does not actually save anybody [!]. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quanitatively. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist. [Arminians ignorantly believe in more of a "limited atonement" than we do!]

The atonement, we believe, was a real, actual, substitutionary one, not a possible, one that is dependent for its efficacy upon the actions of man. THe Father decrees salvation, the Sons dies in their place, and the Spirit sanctifies them and conforms them. This is the consistent testimony of the Bible.

For more, see

http://www.aomin.org/Was Anyone Saved.html.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I think the point you're missing is that Christ's goal wasn't to die at the Cross.&nbsp; It was to reconcile sinners to their&nbsp;Father in Heaven.&nbsp; If&nbsp;His goal was to reconcile all sinners to the Father and&nbsp;you say, and I agree, that doesn't happen then you are saying that&nbsp;He failed in His goal of bringing all people to salvation.&nbsp;&nbsp;

If my dad gives me $100 bill but I do not use it, has he failed in meeting my&nbsp;need of money?&nbsp; I believe the answer would be, No, he did not fail.&nbsp; But I chose not to apply it.&nbsp; That makes it my failure, not his.

Originally posted by Reformationist

Once again, the target audience there is CHRISTIANS.&nbsp; You can continue to ignore this very pertinant fact but it doesn't change the fact that 2 Peter was written to CHRISTIANS.&nbsp; Look at the sentence:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He clearly qualifies the "all" with the "us."&nbsp; The us isn't the whole world.&nbsp; It's Peter and his&nbsp;ELECT&nbsp;brethren.

God bless

I am not ignoring anything.&nbsp;&nbsp;

I understand who Peter was talking to.&nbsp; However, if they were already saved by being of the "elect", why should there be any concern over their perishing?&nbsp; Why would he make this statement to people who, being the elect, were not perishing?&nbsp;

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Also Reformationist,

Is there security of being part of the elect? IOW How does one know for sure if they are part of the elect, or not?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
If my dad gives me $100 bill but I do not use it, has he failed in meeting my&nbsp;need of money?&nbsp; I believe the answer would be, No, he did not fail.&nbsp; But I chose not to apply it.&nbsp; That makes it my failure, not his.

But you are not saved this way.&nbsp;&nbsp;In your scenario you'd have to&nbsp;use the&nbsp;$100 bill for it to be worth anything.&nbsp; Christ's sacrifice&nbsp;(the&nbsp;$100 bill) wasn't paid to you.&nbsp;&nbsp;A better analogy using your terms would be if you had a $100&nbsp;debt to Joe and your&nbsp;friend paid that debt.&nbsp; He gave Joe the $100.&nbsp; Whether you&nbsp;"accept" what he did or not makes no difference.&nbsp; The debt was paid.&nbsp;

Why would he make this statement to people who, being the elect, were not perishing?&nbsp;

Because not all the elect were regenerated at that time.&nbsp; I wasn't even born and neither were you.&nbsp; If God wasn't longsuffering and said, "okay, after Paul, that's it.&nbsp; Anyone who ever sins after that is on their own."&nbsp; Everybody seems to think that just because a person is one of the elect means that they are born regenerated.&nbsp; That's not the case.&nbsp; Not even all the people in Paul's time who were of the elect were saved at that time.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Also Reformationist,

Is there security of being part of the elect? IOW How does one know for sure if they are part of the elect, or not?

Do you struggle against "that which you don't want to do" because you agree that the Law is good?&nbsp; If so, you are of the elect.

Those that don't struggle against their fallenness don't because they don't recognize that they violate that which is the standard.&nbsp; In other words, they aren't regenerate.&nbsp; As to whether a person who doesn't struggle will ever be saved, only God knows.

God bless

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Reformationist,

So is it possible to be be part of the elect and die unregenerated? And, would you explain a little of what you mean when you say "regenerated".

Thank you.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

To quaffer:

Yes. Consider the demon-fearing nations in Africa that never heard Christ. It is my assumption that some are saved, correct?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Reformationist,

So is it possible to be be part of the elect and die unregenerated? And, would you explain a little of what you mean when you say "regenerated".

Thank you.

Absolutely not.&nbsp; If God has elected you unto salvation you were redeemed in the sight of God by the death of Christ.&nbsp; You are pronounced just before God because of the work of Christ, keeping the Law perfectly and dying in our stead as an innocent man.&nbsp; God, according to the counsel of His own Will, will regenerate you and will complete the good work He started in you.

Regenerated means that you have been brought back to life and given a new nature that desires to please God.&nbsp; For most Christians they mark the beginning of their Christian life by a prayer or by baptism.&nbsp; The truth is that the prayer or baptism is the result of God regenerating them.

God bless

 

[sola fide]

I wonder how so many completely ignore the doctrine of election. Everyone here will "admit" that they in some way or another believe in it. You have to admit it because it is clear throughout the entire canon of scripture.
I don't see why people who believe in a general atonement think that everything is up to us. That puts the power of eternal life in our own hands.

John 1:13- "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

That scripture in and of itself tells you that a man does not will his rebirth, it is willed by God alone.

John 6:37- "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out."

NOTICE- it's not all that come to me the Father will give to me, it's all that the Father gives me will come to me. I think many people have that scripture turned around backwards.

We know that "the flesh profits nothing" but many seem to think that many people make a "decision" for Christ from their flesh.

John 10:11- "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd give His life for the sheep."
So, the question remains....is everyone in the world one of Christ's sheep? Did He die for every single person? No, He died for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Abraham's spiritual descendents.

John 10:14-16- "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and tehy will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."
Notice He said- "other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I MUST BRING." - He didn't say, I must give them the opportunity to join the fold.....HE said I must bring them....He Himself must bring them.

John 10:26- "But you do not believe, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP."
NOTICE- He didn't say- because you do not believe you are not of My sheep......He said YOU DO NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP.
v. 27- "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."
NOTICE- He didn't say If you will hear my voice and follow Me then you will be of My sheep....No, He knows His sheep, and they will know Him....and His sheep are the only ones He laid down His life for.

The good shepherd does not lay down His life for the wolves that run about seeking to devour the sheep. He doesn't lay His life down for the cows that graze among the sheep. He doesn't lay down His life for the dog that follows the sheep.....The good shepherd lays His life down for the sheep.

Grace to you.

 

[dignitized]

As a NON-Calvinist I have every right to ignore his messed up view of God in this issue sole fide.

Christ died to save the world. The world rejects the death of Christ. Does that make his death of no avail? no. HOWEVER< to say that Christ died for only a few, which presupposes that Christ DAMNES people before they are even born and that they have NO chance what ever at redemption is to make God into a tyrant. There is no justice in predamnation.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
As a NON-Calvinist I have every right to ignore his messed up view of God in this issue sole fide.

I am so glad that God is giving me the grace to laugh at this. &nbsp;

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by Br. Max
As a NON-Calvinist I have every right to ignore his messed up view of God in this issue sole fide.

Christ died to save the world. The world rejects the death of Christ. Does that make his death of no avail? no. HOWEVER&lt; to say that Christ died for only a few, which presupposes that Christ DAMNES people before they are even born and that they have NO chance what ever at redemption is to make God into a tyrant. There is no justice in predamnation.

I cherish opinions, everybody has one, but the only opinion that matters to me is that of SCRIPTURE ALONE.&nbsp; Only scripture has the creedence to bind my consiciense.

Romans 9:11-13-
"(FOR THE CHILDREN NOT YET BEING BORN, NOR HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS BUT OF HIM WHO CALLS), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."&nbsp; As it is written "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

14-16-
"What shall we say then?&nbsp; Is there unrighteousness with God?&nbsp; Certainly not!&nbsp; For He says to Moses, "I will have moercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion"&nbsp; So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

21-23-
"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishoner?&nbsp; What if God wanting to show His wrath and to make His pwer known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the righes of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared before hand for glory."

I don't have to argue this point, the scriptures declare it for me.

Grace to you.

&nbsp;

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Absolutely not.&nbsp; If God has elected you unto salvation you were redeemed in the sight of God by the death of Christ.&nbsp; You are pronounced just before God because of the work of Christ, keeping the Law perfectly and dying in our stead as an innocent man.&nbsp; God, according to the counsel of His own Will, will regenerate you and will complete the good work He started in you.

Regenerated means that you have been brought back to life and given a new nature that desires to please God.&nbsp; For most Christians they mark the beginning of their Christian life by a prayer or by baptism.&nbsp; The truth is that the prayer or baptism is the result of God regenerating them.

God bless

So are you&nbsp;saying that all one has to do is have the desire to please God and that means they are regenerated, therefore, they are the elect?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
So are you&nbsp;saying that all one has to do is have the desire to please God and that means they are regenerated, therefore, they are the elect?

Not exactly.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm not saying that having the desire to please&nbsp;God is how they get saved.&nbsp; I'm saying that only&nbsp;those who have been regenerated have a godly desire to please God.&nbsp; You know why?&nbsp; Because God gives them that desire:

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God bless

&nbsp;

 

[devoted]

I was always taught even in the protestant churches, that Jesus loves me as if no one else exsisted, and that, if I were the only person on earth, he still would have come and died for me.

The elect deal that's being pushed by what? 3 people out of 19, does not fit into this at all.

 

[dignitized]

sola fide: scripture alone?? lol have you read your scriptures?? I'm sure you have. Tell me, how do you account for the fact that in the OT alone there are over 60 quotations from or references to extra-canonical texts?

would you like me to quote a few? I have a partial list

 

[dignitized]

Sola: I see nothing in the texts you have quoted which refute the doctrine of Free will. for it is the one gift God gave each of us that we can say is ours and ours alone - our individual will.

The passage of Romans is to remind us that NOTHING we DO will EARN us salvation. Salvation is given By God alone to us through Grace alone, by faith unto good works.

It also shows us that God is no respecter or persons meaning that He by his own choice will give special graces unto whom ever he wants NOT because they have earned it, but because it is his desire to do so. Does this mean that he loves us differently? NO!!! God has AGAPE love. Love that knows no conditions. He loves each and everyone of us the same. He loves you the same as he loves me as he loved John (whom he called beloved) as he loved John the Baptist (of whom Christ said none born of woman is greater than he) as Mary - HIS OWN MOTHER. Does that he loves us all the same make us all equal in talents and graces? No! Mozart was a musical genius and I struggle to carry a tune in a bucket!

Does the clay have the right to tell the potter what kind of vessel he will be? No. Our callings are up to God to hand out. ACCEPTING that calling is in our own hands.

You wish to see a God of wrath and anger, I choose to see a God of Justice and Love.

 

[Outspoken]

"that Jesus loves me as if no one else exsisted, "

Hmm...Jesus came to save the church and if you're all alone you can't love others as yourself can you? You also can't keep the whole law as these go hand in hand. Christians are in constant community, this is how all of the early church understood it, its only recently (last 100 yrs or so) that it has become an indivdualized thing, when its not. Just another example of culture influencing the church when it should be the other way around.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by devoted
I was always taught even in the protestant churches, that Jesus loves me as if no one else exsisted, and that, if I were the only person on earth, he still would have come and died for me.

I'm sure He would have.&nbsp; That doesn't go against what I profess.&nbsp;

The elect deal that's being pushed by what? 3 people out of 19, does not fit into this at all.

Oh well there's a way to determine if something is true.

&nbsp;