Did Jesus die for all?

[Defender of the Faith 777]

All this stuff that God HAS to be fair to each equally is codswallop.

The Bible I'M reading has Romans 9, and uses words like "elect", "chosen", and "predestined" consistently throughout.

It also talks about a chosen nation. The Israelites chosen over all in the world. Not because they were great, but because His GRACE was great.

Desire and will are not the same thing.

You desire that your kid feels no pain, but you need to spank him so that he grows up into a fine gentleman. You don't want to hurt him, and it hurts you, but it is still your will that you spank him.

That doesn't mean you're heartless. We make that mistake with God.

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by sola fide
Ah a quote from Isaiah 55, I like that chapter of Isaiah, let's read some more...
Isaiah 55:8-11-
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the LORD.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughs.  For as the rain comes down, and the snow frome heaven and do not return there, but water the earth and make it bring foth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prospter IN THE THING FOR WHICH I SENT IT."

God's word does not return void, all whom He has chosen shall hear His word, and will receive Christ.  Yet another example of how God's will cannot be thwarted.

Grace to you.

 

But how is God's will thwarted if Jesus died for all people and accomplished salvation for all people?

Basically it's like saying, "What's that got to do with the price of tea in china?"

God is not sovereign and his will is thwarted and his death was unaccomplished and in vain if one of his creations, one of us who is so far beneath him goes to hell because we choose a life of sin over a life of grace? That does not make sense and it gives us power over God.

And BTW how do you know for a fact that there are those that are in hell? I 'm not saying there isn't but I am not going to say that God's mercy as limits. All we really know is this; Jesus is the savoir of the world. If anyone doesn't end up in hell, it's because Jesus saved them.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by devoted
But how is God's will thwarted if Jesus died for all people and accomplished salvation for all people?

Unless you believe that all people are saved how can you say that salvation is "accomplished" for all people? 

God is not sovereign and his will is thwarted and his death was unaccomplished and in vain if one of his creations, one of us who is so far beneath him goes to hell because we choose a life of sin over a life of grace? That does not make sense and it gives us power over God.

I think that's exactly what those of us who believe in limited atonement are saying.  To believe that Christ's death was uneffective in the life of someone He died for because they rejected it's effectiveness is to say that that which He set out to do is subject to the creation. 

If anyone doesn't end up in hell, it's because Jesus saved them.

Absolutely.  However, if you claim that statement is biblically accurate you have to apply the inverse, "If anyone does end up in hell, it's because Jesus didn't save them."

God bless

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
All this stuff that God HAS to be fair to each equally is codswallop.

But, the Bible also says that God is no respecter of persons. So, God doesn't just choose to love people more than others... and if He loves us all, then He has the same desire for us all. He doesn't WANT any of His creation to burn in hell, but because He's given us free will, He knows that OUR choices will cause some to burn. To think that God WANTS people to burn in hell is so anti-God that I can't understand WHY anyone is a Christian who would believe such a thing. We sit here and talk about the steadfast love of the Lord, but then we say that He only extends the privileges of His love to a certain few? HOGWASH!

God loves EVERYONE the same and He has extended salvation to everyone. But, if we don't TAKE IT, the problem is with us, NOT with God.

All of the scriptures that you all site with regard to predestination and the will of God can definitely be explained without making God a brutal murderer. I do believe in predestination because Romans 8:29-30 make this point clear. But, He only predestinates those who He knows, and He only KNOWS those who CHOOSE Him, for without salvation, our sins keep us separated from God. But now, when He sees us, He only sees the blood (but this only applies to those who have APPLIED the blood to their lives with faith).

I still don't understand why everyone seems to think that it's impossible for someone in a fallen state to have faith in God. People have faith in Buddha... Does that mean that there's a buddha somewhere giving people faith? People have faith in Krishna... Does that mean that Krishna gave them their faith? NO. They CHOSE to believe. Likewise, when we hear the gospel message of Jesus Christ, we can choose to believe or choose to disbelieve... But, faith comes by HEARING the Word of God, so when we hear it, if we beleive it, faith increases. But, we choose what we will and will not believe. If that weren't the case, God wouldn't have given us self-awareness.

It doesn't take away from God's sovereignty. It only PROVES that He truly is sovereign and HAS NOTHING TO PROVE BY FORCING HIS WILL UPON OTHERS. He already knows that He reigns supreme!

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Unless you believe that all people are saved how can you say that salvation is "accomplished" for all people? 

The work of salvation IS accomplished for all people. But, it's not applied to all people unless they accept that work. Not earn it, but accept the gift.

I think that's exactly what those of us who believe in limited atonement are saying.  To believe that Christ's death was uneffective in the life of someone He died for because they rejected it's effectiveness is to say that that which He set out to do is subject to the creation.

That's not true at all. If it's part of God's plan, then He really doesn't have to explain His reasoning to you. But, I think it makes perfect sense. Why apply such a wonderful gift to EVERYONE, even if they won't believe and will make no real effort to live accordingly? No... He only wants those who CHOOSE Him to have that special gift. Jesus said, "Blessed are they which have NOT SEEN and yet believe." So, He honors those who have not seen Him, yet still believe the gospel message. Why would He pronounce a blessing upon them that believe and haven't seen if He knew that it was nothing on their part to believe in the first place? That doesn't make sense. The blessing was pronounced because He knew that people could decide to believe what they wanted to believe. The gift is AVAILABLE for everyone, but you have to receive the gift. Is that so impossible to believe? If the government has funds available for small business owners and all you have to do is accept it, why not accept it? Christ has salvation readily available... the work has been done and all is paid for. All one has to do is ACCEPT it, but it's available to ALL.

Any contrary belief makes God out to be something that Scripture has proven that He isn't.

Absolutely.  However, if you claim that statement is biblically accurate you have to apply the inverse, "If anyone does end up in hell, it's because Jesus didn't save them." 

I agree with this statement. But, it's not that He didn't save them because His blood wasn't powerful enough. He didn't save them because they didn't believe. He wanted to, for what loving God would DESIRE pain and suffering upon ONE of His people? But, because they didn't believe, they didn't receive.

 

[devoted]

Okay, look...To God everything is laid out in front of him like a big picture. Everything is present to him now, there is no past or future, it is all present before him. With that said, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved but that does not mean that God determined if they are saved or not. He gives each of us the freedom to choose him of course he knows if we ultimately are going to choose him and be with him in heaven, so you can say that yes he predestined us to be with him in heave because he knows before time if we are going to be there. This is way different from saying that he put us there and he put others in hell.

We have free will, so God although knowing what we ultimately are going to choose doesn't interfere with our choices. He can and does give us his help and grace, I don't care who you are, he gives us all his grace to help us choose him but it is up to us if we are or not.

When one of us does choose him and we do have faith he can aid us all the more when we cooperate with his graces, we grow in his life and grace. This is what the bible means by sheep and elect. Those that respond to his call are his sheep. They know his voice and they are not led astray because they are in cooperation with his call and grace. But for the one who are not cooperating and reject any hand that God reaches out to them they are not sheep because they don't want to be sheep, not because God never ordained them to be sheep, he ordain all of us to be sheep it’s just not all of us want to be sheep. And the reasons for someone not choosing God is a whole other subject.

 

[devoted]

Mellymell wrote:

{{{I agree with this statement. But, it's not that He didn't save them because His blood wasn't powerful enough. He didn't save them because they didn't believe. He wanted to, for what loving God would DESIRE pain and suffering upon ONE of His people? But, because they didn't believe, they didn't receive. }}}


What does anyone here think the agony in the garden was about? It was about Jesus agonizing over all the souls that he was about to give his life for that he knew would reject him, he saw all the sins of the world right there in front of him, he saw all that would reject his love and mercy and he was so anxious that he sweat blood over the thought of dyeing for these souls that he truly loved that he knew was going to reject him.

This is why God sent him an angle to strengthen him, and this is why his suffering were sufficient, he willingly after knowing that there are those that would not be saved still laid down his life. This is love, and one of the seven statements from the cross right before he breathed his last was, "I thirst", he was saying that he thirst for all souls especially for the ones that are lost.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by mellymell
The work of salvation IS accomplished for all people. But, it's not applied to all people unless they accept that work. Not earn it, but accept the gift.

So you see a difference between something being accomplished for you and something being applied to you?  Like for instance, I could say, "I accomplished paying for my son's college tuition, that is, I've paid for it, but I didn't let him go to college?"  That's seems very confusing. 

That's not true at all. If it's part of God's plan, then He really doesn't have to explain His reasoning to you.

I agree.  But aren't you saying that it is part of God's plan that all people are saved and yet you are saying that that isn't what happens?  Do you believe that God, the omnipotent Creator, has a plan that He can't fulfill?  Again, confusing.

But, I think it makes perfect sense. Why apply such a wonderful gift to EVERYONE, even if they won't believe and will make no real effort to live accordingly?

Uhh...maybe I'm misunderstanding.  Those of us who believe in limited atonement are saying that God didn't apply that wonderful gift to everyone and the only one's who will believe are those that He did apply it to.  The reason that they believe is because they have been regenerated.

No... He only wants those who CHOOSE Him to have that special gift. Jesus said, "Blessed are they which have NOT SEEN and yet believe."

I'm in full agreement.  I think one of the point we differ is the reason some believe and some don't.  I attribute it solely to God's action of giving someone His salvitic grace.  You seem to be saying that man believes from a fallen heart unto righteousness.  Is that what you're saying?

So, He honors those who have not seen Him, yet still believe the gospel message.

God "honors" His creation????!!!  If salvation is a product of God honoring the faithful believer what was He merciful for?  It seems as if you are saying man deserves to be saved because he believed?  Is that what you're saying?

The blessing was pronounced because He knew that people could decide to believe what they wanted to believe.

So man is totally free to decide whatever he wants despite his fallen nature?  What effect did the Fall have on man?  Did it intrinsically change anything about man's nature or did it just separate him from God?

But, it's not that He didn't save them because His blood wasn't powerful enough.

Limited atonement has nothing to do with whether the blood of Christ could have saved everyone.  I don't think any Christian believes that it couldn't have saved everyone.  I think the issue is intention, not value.

He didn't save them because they didn't believe.

Well, then you don't agree with my statement as you said you did.  I said if devoted's statement, "If anyone doesn't end up in hell, it's because Jesus saved them" then the inverse "anyone does end up in hell, it's because Jesus didn't save them" has to be true.  You said you agree with that.  Now you're saying that the inverse statement should read "If anyone does end up in hell, it's because Jesus didn't save them because they didn't believe."  That's not what I said.

He wanted to, for what loving God would DESIRE pain and suffering upon ONE of His people?

No loving God would desire pain and suffering upon one of His people.  However, when we are fallen, we are not His people.  We are sons of our father the devil.  We are, by nature, objects of God's wrath.  We become His children when we are redeemed.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by devoted
Okay, look...To God everything is laid out in front of him like a big picture. Everything is present to him now, there is no past or future, it is all present before him. With that said, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved but that does not mean that God determined if they are saved or not. He gives each of us the freedom to choose him of course he knows if we ultimately are going to choose him and be with him in heaven, so you can say that yes he predestined us to be with him in heave because he knows before time if we are going to be there.

Well, this is a very common, popular view.  Let me ask you a couple of questions.  You say that God "knows who will be saved and who will not be saved" because "everything is laid out in front of Him like a big picture," right?  What I'd like to know is do you think God, looking at the big picture, knowing that some will not be saved, still wants them to be saved?  I mean, He's God.  Do you believe God set Himself up to be disappointed?  Also, if all God could do is "see" what was going to happen, don't you recognize that that makes Him subject to what happens?  You are saying He can't change what will happen right?  So basically, God has been relegated to a position of all knowing fortune teller?  Lastly, Scripture uses the word "foreknew" when speaking of whom will be saved:

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew,...

For the record, "foreknew" DOES NOT just mean "know ahead of time."  It means to "know intimately."  For instance, I know the guy I work with.  His wife "knows" him.  That would be intimate.  God "foreknowing" us depicts an intimate knowledge of the object, namely, His elect.  Look at the entirity of Romans 8:29,30

Romans 8:29,30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It's very important to note that the tense in which these statements are made.  It does not say "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also will justify; and whom He will justify, these He also will glorify."  For us it's all future tense.  But for God is has happened.  As you said, God does not live in time.  It's also important to note who does all this.  GOD does all this.  It says HE foreknows, HE predestined, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified, right?  What it does not say is "For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What I'm getting at is Scripture makes it clear that God intimately knew some of us before the foundations of the earth, those are the ones He called, those are the ones He justified, those are the ones He glorified.  IT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE.  We just don't see that because we live in time.

We have free will, so God although knowing what we ultimately are going to choose doesn't interfere with our choices. He can and does give us his help and grace, I don't care who you are, he gives us all his grace to help us choose him but it is up to us if we are or not.

So what would happen if we choose something that goes against His plan?  Does that mean His plan is not going to come to fruition because He doesn't "interfere with our choices?"  For instance, what would have happened had Mary said, "You know God, I'm not into this whole immaculate conception stuff.  I think I'll pass."  Does that mean that God would have to say, "Well, I guess I can't redeem mankind?"  The only other option I can see is that He would pick someone else and ask them, which He never did with Mary, "Would you like to be the vessel for the Living Word?"  What does that mean?  Does that mean that if God's plan of the birth of Jesus included Mary and she had said "no" then God would've had to change His plan?  Or do you believe God's plan is not that specific and leaves a lot up to chance, like our specific salvation? 

But for the one who are not cooperating and reject any hand that God reaches out to them they are not sheep because they don't want to be sheep, not because they don't want to be sheep, not because God never ordained them to be sheep, he ordain all of us to be sheep it’s just not all of us want to be sheep. And the reasons for someone not choosing God is a whole other subject.

So, you're saying that the thing that separates mankind from God is just that many "don't want to be sheep?"  What about the wrath of God?  Do you believe that is just overcome by a righteous action on our part?  Even if you believe that the wrath of God against all mankind was satiated by the death of the perfect Lamb then what you're saying is that all mankind is at peace with God.  Is that what you believe?

God bless

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Reformationist
So you see a difference between something being accomplished for you and something being applied to you?  Like for instance, I could say, "I accomplished paying for my son's college tuition, that is, I've paid for it, but I didn't let him go to college?"  That's seems very confusing.

Oh come now, you're manipulating this illustration to fit your point. The accurate parallel would be to say that you ACCOMPLISHED paying for the son's college tuition, but the CHILD DECIDED NOT TO GO TO COLLEGE AFTER THE FACT. This is VERY possible, and is exactly what happens with the blood as it relates to salvation.

I agree.  But aren't you saying that it is part of God's plan that all people are saved and yet you are saying that that isn't what happens?  Do you believe that God, the omnipotent Creator, has a plan that He can't fulfill?  Again, confusing.

No, what I AM saying is this: God has two elements to His "scope of life" (horrible way to put it, sorry )
1) a will and 2) a plan
1) His will - this is what He would prefer to happen but because of free choice, not everything He DESIRES happens. It is not His will that any should perish, nor it is His will that any should be sick with illness. Yet, these are truths that exist DESPITE His will. Now, since He's God, He could impose His will upon the world, but that would undermine the order of creation (the design that He built into creation to have freewill)
2) His plan - in contrast to His will, His plan is EVERYTHING that happens, good and bad. Nothing can happen that would surprise an omniscient God because He knows all. Since He knows all, everything is in His plan (not because He MADE these things happen, but because nothing surprises Him, in other words, He didn't make 9/11 happen, but it was in His plan because He knew it WOULD happen.). That's why Romans 8:28 is possible: All things work together for good to them... This is because even though bad things happen, ALL things are in His plan.

So, it's part of His plan that people perish, because it's a truth that exists, but that doesn't make it part of His will. For instance, you may make plans to make a trip, and you'd rather not have to make ANY stops for gas, but since you know you'll have to, you put it in the plan. It's not your will to stop for gas, but it's in your plan. This isn't a perfect example, no natural example could fit our limitless God, but it still illustrates my point. So, the question is: If it's not God's will, why would He allow it to happen? The answer is that He does and that's all we can say. Otherwise, we'd never have bad things happen, and SIN sho' nuff wouldn't exist. Do you think it's God's will that sin exists? NO, but it's in His plan.

Uhh...maybe I'm misunderstanding.  Those of us who believe in limited atonement are saying that God didn't apply that wonderful gift to everyone and the only one's who will believe are those that He did apply it to.  The reason that they believe is because they have been regenerated

Watch your verbiage because it changes the nature of our disagreement on this issue. I agree that God didn't APPLY that gift to everyone and that the only ones it will be applied to ar ethose who will believe. But, I'm saying that the gift is still AVAILABLE to everyone, but it won't be applied unless they first believe.

I'm in full agreement.  I think one of the point we differ is the reason some believe and some don't.  I attribute it solely to God's action of giving someone His salvitic grace.  You seem to be saying that man believes from a fallen heart unto righteousness.  Is that what you're saying?

Sort of. But, I think how you put it may mislead some of the other readers. I'll rephrase. I agree that the very fact that we CAN believe is a result of God's salvific grace. However, that grace doesn't MAKE anyone believe. Man believes from a fallen heart as a result of accepting the gospel message as truth. Just as you would believe that Abraham Lincoln didn't die in a car crash, you believe what the teachers told you.... That doesn't take divine intervention. In the same way, one believes the gospel message unto salvation. Now, their belief doesn't DIRECTLY make them righteous, for as the Bible says, there is none righteous but God. But, their belief causes the blood of Jesus to be applied and it's becaue of the BLOOD that we are made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

God "honors" His creation????!!!  If salvation is a product of God honoring the faithful believer what was He merciful for?

John 5:44 - "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?"

I'm not saying that we have earned God's honor.... The fact that He extends it at all is definitely a blessing and an extension of grace... But, it doesn't change the fact that God honors them that believe. He doesn't SERVE them, but He honors them... Why is that so hard to believe? Again, Jesus pronounced blessing upon them that have believed but have not seen.

So man is totally free to decide whatever he wants despite his fallen nature?  What effect did the Fall have on man?  Did it intrinsically change anything about man's nature or did it just separate him from God?

Both. It did change something about man's nature and it did separate us from God. But, the ability to believe was not changed. I've said many times that we believe in many things without divine intervention, why can't we believe in God because of the gospel message, which Romans 1 says leads us unto salvation? To answer the VERY first question, YES, man is free to decide whatever he wants despite his fallen nature.

Limited atonement has nothing to do with whether the blood of Christ could have saved everyone.  I don't think any Christian believes that it couldn't have saved everyone.  I think the issue is intention, not value.

Well, I don't think that God "intended" for the blood to save everyone because He already knew that people wouldn't believe. Now, I'm sure that He PREFERS and WISHES that it would have, but because of people's lack of faith, He knew that it wouldn't. Intention is not a product of His will, but a product of His plan... See above for the difference. If He INTENDED for salvation to be APPLIED to everyone, it would be. Nothing God INTENDS can go contrary. But, again, this intention stems from His PLAN, not His will, and it doesn't change the fact that salvation is OPEN AND READILY AVAILABLE TO ALL, but will only be applied to them that believe.

No loving God would desire pain and suffering upon one of His people.  However, when we are fallen, we are not His people.  We are sons of our father the devil.  We are, by nature, objects of God's wrath.  We become His children when we are redeemed.

Lemme slightly change what I said. No loving God would desire pain and suffering upon on of His created. And fallen or not, we are His created. That's why He sent His Son, to redeem those whom He LOVED (while they were still fallen) back unto Himself. He doesn't will that ANY should perish, not just His people! I wouldn't serve a God that selfishly limited. Our God is benevolent and generous and loved us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. He loves EVERYONE, sinner or not and desires HEAVEN for ALL. But, they won't get it without believing in Him.

 

[sola fide]

Boy, I love how we all limit the power of God and exalt the nature of man. I just don't see God sittin' up there on the throne saying "oh my! I can't believe that happened, back to the drawing board!" God doesn't have to make plans, He already has an ultimate "plan" for this universe, and it is His glory, His glory, and His glory. The plan of God in the end is His glory to the third power (cubed).
So many have such an easy time saying that God has the end mapped out the the umpteenth degree, but when you try to say that He has the salvation of a man mapped out....."Oh no, He couldn't do that, that wouldn't allow man to have a free will!" God knows the beginning from the end. Why? Not because He has watched it beforehand like T.Vo or something, but because He has a sovereign plan and design for all time, and He will cause His purpose to be accomplished.
Was Judas predestined to betray Jesus? Was he? Say no, go ahead...if you do, you are wrong. It was prophesied by David. Does, or did, the antichrist decide to be the antichrist, or was he destined to be?
God does not love all people equally. Does that make Him mean? No, it makes Him just and merciful all at one time. We all deserve hell.
Did God love Jacob more than Esau? Did He love Moses more than pharoah? How about Peter more than Judas? Yes, yes, and yes. I'm just thankful that it is that way. Because if He did not choose a people, and bring them to salvation, then we would all be in deep trouble, as they say.

Grace to you.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Mellymel,

perhaps you could respond to the post I wrote for you.

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
All this stuff that God HAS to be fair to each equally is codswallop.

I don't try to say that God has to be fair by our standards, but the WORD OF GOD says that He is not a respecter of persons.

The Bible I'M reading has Romans 9, and uses words like "elect", "chosen", and "predestined" consistently throughout.

The question becomes WHY are these people elect or chosen? I don't deny that they were, but WHY? Unfair would say that it was a random decision or a mood swing. Fair would say that He had a REASON, and I'm all for that, but that doesn't mean that He loves any more than the other.

It also talks about a chosen nation. The Israelites chosen over all in the world. Not because they were great, but because His GRACE was great.

Again, you shouldn't believe for a MOMENT that this grace was extended just because He felt like it. That would be unfair. The Israelites were chosen for a specific reason, because their fore-father ABRAHAM found favor in the eyes of the Lord because of his faith, which the Bible says was accounted unto Him as righteousness. But, there were plenty of times when God wanted to destroy the Israelites, but Moses stood in the gap for them... There are always GOOD reasons. God isn't a random God like that. He has reasons that justify everything He does, not because He has to answer to us, but just because that's His character.

Desire and will are not the same thing.

You desire that your kid feels no pain, but you need to spank him so that he grows up into a fine gentleman. You don't want to hurt him, and it hurts you, but it is still your will that you spank him.

Not true. It is not your WILL to spank them... But, it is a decision that you make contrary to your will because you have a "greater" will which wnts them to learn from their mistakes. It's a "greater good" type thing, but it's not your will NOR your desire to inflict them with pain.

But, although that was a bad example, your point is still taken because I considered Paul saying that when He would to do good, evil was always present. But, that evil wouldn't be a problem unless he had an unrighteous DESIRE that he had to keep in check. So, I'd agree that desire and will are not the same. I was using them interchangeably, but the points I was making are still the same because when it comes to GOD, will and desire ARE the same because He doesn't have two natures to contend with like we do. For humans, I think DESIRE speaks more to the natural man's pleasure and WILL speaks more to the intent of their heart. Sometimes, these two can be contrary to one another. But, with God, He doesn't have two warring natures.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by mellymell
Oh come now, you're manipulating this illustration to fit your point.

It certainly isn't intentional.

The accurate parallel would be to say that you ACCOMPLISHED paying for the son's college tuition, but the CHILD DECIDED NOT TO GO TO COLLEGE AFTER THE FACT. This is VERY possible, and is exactly what happens with the blood as it relates to salvation.

Even acknowledging that your revision of my example is closer to what you're saying about salvation you make a startling implication.  According to your revision, because of the decision of my son the tuition I paid was wasted.  Or do you think God gets a refund when someone passes on the "gift." 

No, what I AM saying is this: God has two elements to His "scope of life" (horrible way to put it, sorry )

I believe that there are two aspects to God too.  The most common terms are His sovereign, or decreed, will and His permissive Will. 

1) a will and 2) a plan

You think that God has a Will that is different than His plan???!!!

1) His will - this is what He would prefer to happen but because of free choice, not everything He DESIRES happens.

Geesh!!  I don't even know how you can say this.  So God desires one thing and something else happens?  That is nothing like the God of the Bible.  God wants something, it happens, end of story.

2) His plan - in contrast to His will, His plan is EVERYTHING that happens, good and bad.

God's Plan is in contrast to God's Will???!!!  Now I've heard everything.

You know mellymel, seriously, no offense, but the rest of your post depicts God as this impotent being that, I guess, voluntarily submits what He wants to the desires of the creation.  I can't continue.  This is too unbiblical for me.

Gotta go.

God bless

 

[Blindfaith]

[mod hat on]

I'm going to close this down for 24 hours just to cool things off a bit.

If anyone has a problem with this decision, please pm me.

Thanks, and God Bless you all

[mod hat off]