Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Zebra1552]

Godchild87,

It's not enough just to say it isn't you must show proof.....

I have shown you that 2pet2:1-2 can be translated in such a way that Jesus is not both God and savior.....

I have shown plenty of proof. The original language is my proof. And it cannot be translated without Jesus' deity because of how the original language works.

You have not shown anything.....

Yes I have. I have shown you multiple translations of the same verse in my previous posts, and aside from that I have shown you verses. I have shown quite a few things.

You have not answered why Jesus if God almighty will receive power and glory from God..... His lordship was from God..... refute that please.....

Why should I refute an invalid point that I have already answered? Jesus, being fully God and fully man, can easily recieve power and glory from God because he is also a man, not just God.

You can't just say no.... and ignore everything....

I'm not ignoring anything here.

As I said, I stand with those translation without the "additional" comma....

And your standing is not a standing in logic, it is a standing that is based on what you want to hear. The NAS does not have the and that you propose.

God and hist anointed one are separated by the Gr word "kai"......

In the KJV it is, not in the NAS, which is copyright 1995- after the DSS, as opposed to the KJV which is copyright in the 1800's. Even if KJV were more accurage, take a look at what your 'kai' means. Indeed.

"Lord" is not exclusive to God as you are claiming....

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

Great, but giving me how a word is used throughout the Greek language does nothing, and the implication of the definition is the same due to verses condemning idolatry- if Jesus is the owner, chief, master, possessor, or lord of someone and Jesus is not God, it is idolatry. So now you are saying that the Bible encourages idolatry. Great.

Christ Lordship was God given not inherent to him.......

(Act 2:36 ASV) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.


and therefore 2pet1:1-2 does not prove Trinity.......

Yes it does, it is logically deduced from the meaning of the verses.

 

[Gary51]

When you drop out of the conversation or fail to address points, you concede the point.

Sorry, but my views remain unchanged.

Have a nice day.

 

[Zebra1552]

Sorry, but my views remain unchanged.

Have a nice day.

Great, you know how to copy paste. So do I.

When you drop out of the conversation or fail to address points, you concede the point.

 

[Gary51]

Great, you know how to copy paste. So do I.

When you drop out of the conversation or fail to address points, you concede the point.

Sorry you feel like that. If you refer to my post #755, it explains why.

Peace be with you.

 

[scriptures]

Godchild87,

NASB added comma to the original.....you can't justify adding to the word of God.....

You have shown me numerous translations.... but I said those translations like the NASB and NIV are the ones I reject because of the unnecessary "comma" they added to the scriptures.....

(ASV) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

(KJV) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

I agree with these above translations....God and the anointed are distinct individual....

You ignored a legitimate meaning of the word "Lord".....

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

You must refute with proof verses.... The anointed one's Lordship was given by God....


(Act 2:36 ASV) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.


Is this Idolatry to you?

(Rev 7:13 ASV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
(Rev 7:14 ASV) And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Zebra1552]

Sorry you feel like that. If you refer to my post #755, it explains why.

Peace be with you.

And it still boils down to you conceding the point.

 

[Zebra1552]

Godchild87,

NASB added comma to the original.....you can't justify adding to the word of God.....

Then every single translation we have is guilty of adding, including the ones you quote at me, because of the lack of punctuation in the original language.

You have shown me numerous translations.... but I said those translations like the NASB and NIV are the ones I reject because of the unnecessary "comma" they added to the scriptures.....

Great, but you have yet to prove that they are unnecessary, or that they don't belong there.

I agree with these above translations....God and the anointed are distinct individual....

That's great, and I agree, but things can be distinct and equal at the same time.

You ignored a legitimate meaning of the word "Lord".....

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

No I did not. I logically deduced that God is the only definition possible given the context.

You must refute with proof verses.... The anointed one's Lordship was given by God....

I already have refuted it, and you have chosen to ignore the reference made to Matthew 28, John 10, or John 8.

Is this Idolatry to you?

Worshipping or treating someone besides God as master, Lord, or any other thing equivalent to those things is idolatry. Therefore, since Jesus is given those titles and is worshipped and treated as those things, Jesus must be God. It is simple deductive reasoning.

 

[Gary51]

And it still boils down to you conceding the point.

So you keep saying.

Peace be with you.

 

[Zebra1552]

So you keep saying.

Peace be with you.

And so have I proven.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Did Jesus say he is a God?

That is what the Jews hearing Him understood Him to say.

 

[Gary51]

And so have I proven.

LOL...

Peace be with you.

 

[Zebra1552]

LOL...

Peace be with you.

Right... laughing at me when I say I've proven something when you only have your and Scripture's twisted logic to back anything to the contrary does not tell me that you've turned the other cheek, Gary.

 

[scriptures]

Godchild87,

Just look at what these translations such as NASB and NIV have done to 2pet1:1-2....
They change the entire meaning of the verse.....
You agree that God and the anointed are distinct from each other..... fine....
Then by agreeing you also agreed that NASB and NIV are erroneous in their rendering of 2pet1:1-2.....
see!!!your learning....hehehehe....
who knows.... I might bring you to truth....
but you still have to understand that they are not equal.......
your almost there...........
a son, an anointed, someone who received power and glory from God can never be equal to God.....
remember????you said "Lord" only refers to God.... then you continue to reject the meaning of "Lord"

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

Again.... your making Apostle John an idolater..... who are you to judge???? remember he called one of
the elders in revelation as "my lord"...

Re 7:13 And one out of the elders answered, saying to me,
"These clothed in white robes, anywho are they, and whence came they?"
Re 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you' are aware." And he said to me,
"These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes,
and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin.

It means one thing.... your belief is defective........

 

[Zebra1552]

I can say Gary and me agree with you 100%......

Many christians just accept a defective doctrine without even consulting the scriptures.... look at Godchild87..... I think he is a victim....but at least now he accepted that God and Jesus the anointed are distinct individual.... see his learning.....

I hope you continue on posting.....I love to read more from you....Gary and I will be very happy......

Excuse me, but you're the one who's ignoring Scripture. I have cited more than a few verses at you and you have only addressed one in detail.

 

[Zebra1552]

Godchild87,

Just look at what these translations such as NASB and NIV have done to 2pet1:1-2....

What? Properly interpreted the Greek using the various meanings of each word and context?

They change the entire meaning of the verse.....

No, they merely translate it so it is readable by English speakers. No translation is perfect, I will give you that, but you are suggesting that they changed, on purpose, the meaning of the verse, and that is erroneous not only because it ignores the Greek, but because you do not back the claim with anything substantial.

You agree that God and the anointed are distinct from each other..... fine....

They are also equal.

Then by agreeing you also agreed that NASB and NIV are erroneous in their rendering of 2pet1:1-2.....

No, I do not. That is a straw man argument, and you can stop trying to put words in my mouth. Read the Greek. It does not support your idea of it.

see!!!your learning....hehehehe....
who knows.... I might bring you to truth....

I already walk in truth. I do not need you to show it to me, because the only truth you possess on this issue is the truth that the Bible is easily distorted to further your own ends rather than reading it as it is.

but you still have to understand that they are not equal.......

Yes, they most certainly are. Read your Bible. We've cited at least 5 verses at you guys and you still ignore them. John 10:30. Matthew 28. John 8. John 1. All epistles of Peter.

your almost there...........
a son, an anointed, someone who received power and glory from God can never be equal to God.....

Prove it.

remember????you said "Lord" only refers to God.... then you continue to reject the meaning of "Lord"

What meaning? The one you espouse while ignoring context? It is not just the Greek word that determines its meaning, it is also the context in which it is used, and given that it was a JEW writing, one who would NEVER call ANYTHING or ANYONE higher than or equal to God unless that person actually WAS God or at least claimed to BE God.

Again.... your making Apostle John an idolater..... who are you to judge???? remember he called one of
the elders in revelation as "my lord"...

That's John, and the context does not demand anything related to divinity.

It means one thing.... your belief is defective........

Hardly, it means you again ignore the proper interpretation of Greek.

 

[Gary51]

Right... laughing at me when I say I've proven something when you only have your and Scripture's twisted logic to back anything to the contrary does not tell me that you've turned the other cheek, Gary.

Sorry for laughing... but you have proven something, and continue to do.

Peace be with you.

 

[scriptures]

Godchild87,

After conceeding to the fact that God and Jesus the anointed one are two different beings....

You must accept that the term Lord is not equivalent to God.....

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

one proof of this Thayer's definition of the word Lord is.....

Re 7:13 And one out of the elders answered, saying to me,
"These clothed in white robes, anywho are they, and whence came they?"
Re 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you' are aware." And he said to me,
"These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes,
and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin.

as you can see here.... John called one of the elders in Revelation as "my lord"..... and John did not imply that this elder is God himself....

so contrary to your claim......

You even called John an idolater.....making your belief totally defective.....and unbiblical.....

You must also understand that Jesus lordship was something given by God.....not inherent to him.... making him not equal with the Father.....

(Act 2:36 ASV) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Since 2Pet1:1-2 was changed by NASB and NIV by adding "extra comma" your claim became invalid for you accepted that God and Jesus are two distinct being....

(2Pe 1:2 ASV) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

This is a very beautiful verse.... for a clear distinction between God and the anointed....

Thank you for accepting.... It's a victory for truth.....

 

[Zebra1552]

Godchild87,

After conceeding to the fact that God and Jesus the anointed one are two different beings....

You must accept that the term Lord is not equivalent to God.....

No, I don't. I am not going to ignore culture for the sake of appeasing you. That's not how discussion or debate or any civilized and healthy conversation works.

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

one proof of this Thayer's definition of the word Lord is.....

Wow. You know how to copy paste. Good for you. Now, are you going to address the other verses or are you going to continue trying in vain to change my mind?

Re 7:13 And one out of the elders answered, saying to me,
"These clothed in white robes, anywho are they, and whence came they?"
Re 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you' are aware." And he said to me,
"These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes,
and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin.

as you can see here.... John called one of the elders in Revelation as "my lord"..... and John did not imply that this elder is God himself....

Hm. As I can see here, John makes it clear that there are no other possible meanings for the word besides 'one worthy of respect and reverence'. You can't make the same claim about Peter's words.

so contrary to your claim......

Contrary to what YOU think my claim is.

You even called John an idolater.....making your belief totally defective.....and unbiblical.....

Where did I do that? I don't remember calling anyone named John an idolater. Unless your name is John .

You must also understand that Jesus lordship was something given by God.....not inherent to him.... making him not equal with the Father.....

That is completely incorrect and is not backed by Scripture.

(Act 2:36 ASV) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

You know, it does not say in there that it was given by God after Jesus was born. It just says that 'God made him both Lord and Christ'.

Since 2Pet1:1-2 was changed by NASB and NIV by adding "extra comma" your claim became invalid for you accepted that God and Jesus are two distinct being....

My claim becomes invalid because you can't properly interpret a Bible passage and ignore other ones like it? Sorry, that does not hold any water. It's nothing but a screen to look through.

(2Pe 1:2 ASV) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

This is a very beautiful verse.... for a clear distinction between God and the anointed....

Thank you for accepting.... It's a victory for truth.....

It does not show complete separation or inequality, nor have I accepted anything but basic trinitarian views.

 

[scriptures]

Godchild87,

since you accepted the fact the God and Jesus are distinct individual..... contrary to what you formerly believe....

You stubbornly clinging to an erroneous belief that they are equa......

You also continue to ignore the definition of Lord....remember your stand is Jesus is God because he is called Lord.... so I will continue to post Lord's definition here....

Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

Remember too, that I quoted Rev.7:13-14 to prove that Lord can be applied to other being besides God and the anointed.....


Re 7:13 And one out of the elders answered, saying to me,
"These clothed in white robes, anywho are they, and whence came they?"
Re 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you' are aware." And he said to me,
"These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes,
and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin


But you called John an idolater....

I will quote another text here.... about Christ being subordinate....

(2Pe 1:17 ASV) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:

 

[Zebra1552]

Godchild87,

since you accepted the fact the God and Jesus are distinct individual..... contrary to what you formerly believe....

It is not contrary to what I believe. The trinity states that there is one God in three persons- one being divided amongst three roles. That lines up perfectly to Jesus and God being distinct.

You stubbornly clinging to an erroneous belief that they are equa......

Because I have seen no evidence to the contrary.

You also continue to ignore the definition of Lord....remember your stand is Jesus is God because he is called Lord.... so I will continue to post Lord's definition here....

Great, more copy paste skill. It's not that difficult to master. I am not ignoring anything- I am merely looking at the author and the context, whereas you ignore it and assume that the word can only mean one thing (when in fact it has several different meanings).

Remember too, that I quoted Rev.7:13-14 to prove that Lord can be applied to other being besides God and the anointed.....

Just because it can be applied as a different meaning elsewhere does not mean it has that same meaning in every verse. For example, the Greek word for spirit is the same word for wind. Yet in most cases it is not talking about both.

But you called John an idolater....

Where was that? Where did I say that John the Apostle was an adulterer? Quote me.

I will quote another text here.... about Christ being subordinate....

(2Pe 1:17 ASV) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:

That does not show that Christ is subordinate, it shows that God is in Jesus as much as Jesus is in God. Kinda goes with the theme of John, that Jesus has a close relationship to the Father. Plus, your forgot to add the context of that verse:

2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
2Pe 1:12 Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
2Pe 1:13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,
2Pe 1:14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
2Pe 1:15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"--
2Pe 1:18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.