Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Uphill Battle]

Not really because the words are plain...

If there is no beginning, one states that there is no beginning...

To state I am the beginning, states there was a beginning...

It's that simple....

I take the line for what it says... you do not, you make it mean something else to fit your beliefs.

In the beginning, God created....

In the beginning, was the word....

does that mean that God wasn't there before the beginning? no.

does that mean the Word was not there before the beginning? no.

Human understanding is within the beginning, and the end. Not so for God. Jesus is OUR beginning, and OUR end. He does not have one himself.

and as for your other post, I said it didn't make logical sense, because your point is illogical.

chronilogically, Jesus would have been younger than Abraham in both years... and age. Abrham preceded the incarnation by centuries. Also, Jesus spoke of these things in his Early 30's and Abraham was much older before his death.

thirdly, you make a HUGE grammatical error in your take. If Jesus was saying what you are saying, it would be "before Abraham, I WAS. Not I AM.

google I AM THAT I AM. You'll see what it means.

 

[scriptures]

Do you have an argument? Or are you just going to play skeptic?

You don't have an answer.......

 

[scriptures]

no kidding. Thanks for the update, Einstein.

care to address the fact that two books, separated by millenium, have God the Father, and Jesus Christ, using the same title, reserved for God (I AM) or are you just satisfied to quip off on perceived errors?

now since you seem smart enough to know that Exodus and John are not the same book... perhaps you'd like to spend some time reading them, and finding out what they mean.

I suggest you should check this with an open mind.....

http://www.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/iam/

 

[Uphill Battle]

I suggest you should check this with an open mind.....

http://www.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/iam/

 

[Zebra1552]

You don't have an answer.......

When you see fit to answer my questions and give me actual answers rather than dodging around the issue, I will be more than happy to answer the questions you asked me after that point.

 

[Gary51]

I'm in the process of studying Fur Elise on the piano....

It's a beautiful piece.

 

[Gary51]

That is why grammar is important.

As you believe grammar is important you might find this interesting...

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Answer...


First of all it has been proven time and time again by most English and Greek language scholars that the translation of this verse violates known grammar. "That is, it puts the subject after the predicate, which is not the normal word order of English sentences, and it mixes a present tense verb with a past tense verb in a totally ungrammatical construction." BeDhun, Truth in Translation, 2003, p 103-111.

Second of all, if your going to go straight to the usual Trinitarian proof texts found in the one Gospel of John, and from there base your whole Christian theology, that is fine. But understand that this verse and others used in the same orthodox [trinitarian] interpretation [Jn. 17.5] are isolated verses that have to be taken into the whole of biblical context.

In other words, so Jesus really did not have a once in a lifetime "birth" [genesis=oirigin; Mat 1.1,18; Lu 1.35]? In what way was he man [human being=[I]anthropos[/I]; Heb 7-11]? Clearly he was not an angelic being or spirit [Heb 1], so what was he some type of alien?

If anything, Jesus here is arguing the simple fact that as the prophesized Messiah of the OT, "seed of the woman" from way back Gen 3.15, he is "superior" [pro pas] than Abraham, the Temple, Jonah, Torah, or even Solomon [cp. Mat 12]. The Pharisees rightly misinterpreted or simply ignored this fact as you and many others still seem to do. These and other verses like it ["before the foundation of the world, predestined, preknown" etc; Mat 25.34; Acts 13.38; Eph 1; Rom 8.29] are concerned with future events seen either in prophetic visions, theophanies etc. or simply in the Jewish understanding of things already fulfilled in the plan, purpose and will of YHWH

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7280823

 

[scriptures]

When you see fit to answer my questions and give me actual answers rather than dodging around the issue, I will be more than happy to answer the questions you asked me after that point.

My question was very simple!!!! why are you playing around????

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

 

[Uphill Battle]

As you believe grammar is important you might find this interesting...

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Answer...


First of all it has been proven time and time again by most English and Greek language scholars that the translation of this verse violates known grammar. "That is, it puts the subject after the predicate, which is not the normal word order of English sentences, and it mixes a present tense verb with a past tense verb in a totally ungrammatical construction." BeDhun, Truth in Translation, 2003, p 103-111.

That's because it's not a verb, It's a noun. A proper noun, a title. A NAME.

 

[Gary51]

Grammar is important.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Indeed. So it's important to know what is a Noun, and what is a verb... wouldn't you say?

 

[Zebra1552]

My question was very simple!!!! why are you playing around????

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

Maybe you misunderstood what I said? I have not seen you answer any of the questions I have asked you. Yet you are asking me questions. I am telling you that if you cannot answer my questions, then I will not answer yours. My statement was very simple. I am not playing around. I am serious about this.

 

[Gary51]

Indeed. So it's important to know what is a Noun, and what is a verb... wouldn't you say?

Of course.... and I do...

However, the phrase is put in a rather strange way... kinda un-grammatical.

Maybe you could discuss it with the OP, he might find your comments interesting.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7280823

 

[scriptures]

Maybe you misunderstood what I said? I have not seen you answer any of the questions I have asked you. Yet you are asking me questions. I am telling you that if you cannot answer my questions, then I will not answer yours. My statement was very simple. I am not playing around. I am serious about this.

as far as I know, I answered every question.... so it's time for you to answer mine......

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

I have spent precious time for this topic.... I am a very busy person... so please don't play around.....

 

[Zebra1552]

as far as I know, I answered every question.... so it's time for you to answer mine......

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

I have spent precious time for this topic.... I am a very busy person... so please don't play around.....

I am not playing around. Would you like me to go back and repost every question you have not answered?

 

[Gary51]

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

I'd be interested in the trinitarian answer to that question myself.

 

[scriptures]

I am not playing around. Would you like me to go back and repost every question you have not answered?

Is that your way of avoiding my question?

 

[scriptures]

I'd be interested in the trinitarian answer to that question myself.

me too!!!

If Jesus is God himself why would he receive power and glory from God???

 

[Zebra1552]

Is that your way of avoiding my question?

No, it is my way of making a boundary for both you and Gary here. If you cannot have the respect to answer my questions in a way that does not ridicule me or my beliefs, then I will not answer your questions.

Post 542-

Do you have an argument? Or are you just going to play skeptic?

Also see post 372 and 362 along the lines of actually providing arguments.

There is also post 337 where you ignored my question and asked questions of your own. Again, belittling my beliefs.

I'd be interested in the trinitarian answer to that question myself.

If you are so interested, then it might behoove you to answer the questions posted for you. We have asked you many questions which you have avoided answering Gary, and we see no reason why we should answer your question when you ignore our many questions. Check this post, or this post, for example. Maybe even this post.

The boundary goes for both of you. If you want us to answer your question (singular) then it is high time you answer our questions (plural).

 

[Uphill Battle]

I'd be interested in the trinitarian answer to that question myself.

it's not a hard question to answer.

Jesus made himself nothing for our account. He separated himself from his glory to become man. He remained God, but he made himself, by his own violition, less than what he was. (quite obviously, as he was eternal, and took on a mortal form, fully God, fully man.)

God gave him Glory. He was glorified for his sacrifice (not only that of dying on the cross.. but for coming in the first place.)