Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[PETE_]

This is just one possiblility.

He enquired where the grave was, because, if he had gone straight to it of his own knowledge, the unbelieving Jews should have thence taken occasion to suspect a collusion between him and Lazarus, and a trick in the case.

We know it was not because He didn't know the answer because of the whole of the Bible. You could use this passage to say the Peter was not even a disciple if you did not take in the entire story.

54 Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55 But when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56 A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.”
57 But he denied it. “Woman, I don’t know him,” he said.
58 A little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.”
“Man, I am not!” Peter replied.
59 About an hour later another asserted, “Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean.”
60 Peter replied, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!”​

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48182253#_ftn1http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48182253#_ftnref1

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

WHERE IS MY ANSWER....

I said, "Why did Jesus ask Lazarus' family where they laid his body..."

Stop telling me what I cannot grasp... It is just a dodge.... Answer this simple question.... Or are you afraid it might make you think?

Again, "WHY DID JESUS ASK LAZARUS' FAMILY WHERE HIS BODY WAS"

I gave you the answer already Gary . . . it is the kenosis (laying aside) of attributes spoken of in Phil. 2. The willing self limitation of Him becoming man.

 

[Nadiine]

I gave you the answer already Gary . . . it is the kenosis (laying aside) of attributes spoken of in Phil. 2. The willing self limitation of Him becoming man.

yes you did answer that ... the problem is, they don't explain how the Bible calls Jesus God in several places directly?

ONE TIME is all that's needed to prove the doctrine. Doctrines aren't proven by repetition, but by claim and one claim is all that is necessary.
The Trinity is repeated over and over from cover to cover, but it's simply being denied as truth.

 

[Gary51]

I gave you the answer already Gary . . . it is the kenosis (laying aside) of attributes spoken of in Phil. 2. The willing self limitation of Him becoming man.

Same old dodges and smoke-screens... Why am I not surprised...

 

[Gary51]

This is just one possiblility.

He enquired where the grave was, because, if he had gone straight to it of his own knowledge, the unbelieving Jews should have thence taken occasion to suspect a collusion between him and Lazarus, and a trick in the case.

Hi Pete.

I see you have put some thought to this.... But I don't think that was the case.... it's easy to check if someone is dead or not. And it was well known that Lazarus had been dead for four days.

Jesus is not all knowing, as He Himself admitted...

He told us, that only the Father knew the date of the resurrection.

 

[scriptures]

Yep . . . you have no understanding of what we really believe . . . your lack of humility to even TRY and get what we believe rightly represented is a complete strawman . . . your logic is errant, everyway you turn.

I suggest you return to the cross homeboy.

Now I know, you can't explain what you believe.....Afterall it's unbiblical....

 

[scriptures]

As I told you . . . gross misrepresentation . . . your accusations have no foundation . . . try again.

O THEOS means THE GOD . . . period.

I will side with the Bible . . .

Then you have to prove to me that your three God a.k.a. one God is not camouflage.....

 

[scriptures]

exactly. Calling Jesus ANY type of "god/God" is heresy if He is only man and no deity whatsoever.

This is the contradiction they keep promoting with their bibles when they make their theology.

Either the Bible is heretical, or they need to get a new theology going that is compliant with all the scriptures.

Religion shielded many from what the Bible really said about Jesus.... By calling heretics those who contradict the dogma of Religion.....

 

[johnd]

Religion shielded many from what the Bible really said about Jesus.... By calling heretics those who contradict the dogma of Religion.....

God revealed in scripture that there is one God (Isaiah 43:10-11).

The Father is God (John 20:17).
The Son is God (John 1:1, John 1:14).
The Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).

The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. (John 14:26, John 15:26)
The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. (John 14:26, John 15:26)
The Spirit is not the Father or the Son. (John 14:26, John 15:26)


Only the Son has taken upon himself the additional nature of humanity (Philippians 2:5-11). He is the Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16) and the God of the Old Testament who hinted at but did not fully reveal the plurality of persons within the Godhead (John 1:18).


The triunity of three individuals (the oneness being that triunity itself) is the only solution to several dilemmas the Bible (not religion not dogma, the Bible) presents to those who by their own dogma, religion, or just plain stubborn will to believe what they want to believe despite the facts.


For example:


John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Here the Bible teaches that the only thing / individual God the Father created /produced was the incarnate body of the Son...



So, who or what created everything else that was created?


Isaiah 44:24

24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

The Father who in John 1:14 and John 3:16 created only the body of the incarnation cannot be the one being spoken of here in Isaiah 44:24. Or John 1:3 or Colossians 1:16.


And if you are going to proceed from a Father - Son interpretation of John 1:14 / John 3:16... then what do you do with...


Luke 3:38
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.



??


You claim Trinitarians only have religion and dogma to back our beliefs / interpretation of scripture. I just proved you and them wrong with the Bible.



In fact, I don't see a lot of scripture coming from your camp.

We are all awaiting your resounding biblical refutation of Trinitarian theology.

 

[johnd]

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

One what? Individual? Compound unity? What?

In fact the form of the word "God" is plural. elohe elohenu (our God) would have signified a oneness of individuality, but the word used is eloheynu (our God) elohiym.

Tritheism is not a viable interpretation to this verse because as we will see with subsequent verses in the Bible there are not three Gods but one God. And the shma (Deuteronomy 6:4) is introductory revelation as to the plurality within the unity.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Religion shielded many from what the Bible really said about Jesus.... By calling heretics those who contradict the dogma of Religion.....

Wow . . . I just totally realized that your pic is of the Jehovah's Witnesses bible . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness? (it would actually explain alot)

 

[johnd]

Wow . . . I just totally realized that your pic is of the Jehovah's Witnesses bible . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness? (it would actually explain alot)

Good eye!

I didn't catch the NWT avatar.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Same old dodges and smoke-screens... Why am I not surprised...

Not a dodge at all . . . no smoke screen . . . the text of Philippians shows quite well the willing self limitation of the Son.

Phil 2:5-9
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

the "emptied" (ekenosen, why we call the passage the "kenosis" passage) is the laying aside, not considering His equality with God something to willfully contend for, ergo He lays aside/empties certain aspects of Himself to become HUMAN.

it is this willing taking on of human-ness that gives understanding to the passages where He experiences the varying limitations of Humanity . . . fatigue, hunger, tiredness, lack of some knowledge (w/o impartation by the Spirit), etc. He came just as us so that He may atone for us . . . fits together marvelously.

So much for a smoke screen huh? This is a solid answer . . . you may not agree (actually it would surprise me if you did agree) but it is a solid answer nonetheless.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Good eye!

I didn't catch the NWT avatar.

I didn't either til just now.

I have a couple copies on my shelf behind me . . . I have an old one that has all the predetermined evangelistic lines in the back for different beliefs
(if you speak to a Muslim you say this . . . to a Christian you say this . . .) and common JW's apologetic arguements.

Interesting is that when you compare older versions to newer versions you can see where they revised the text in several places! I guess no one taught them to not put in print their errors for people to look back on!

 

[johnd]

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has interpreted John 1:1 - 3 to mean that Jehovah the Father created Michael the archangel (that later became Jesus) who in turn created all else.

I already posted the verse that proves this wrong.

Isaiah 44:24
24 “This is what the LORD (Jehovah) says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD (Jehovah), who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Setting aside for now the misunderstanding about ho theos in John 1:1...

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

In Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah is taking all the credit. Obviously Jehovah is Jesus Jehovah shua (Jesus = Jehovah saves).

The WTBS has not only done what you have accused Trinitarians of doing, dogma and religion, but the WTBS even rewrites the Bible when it disagrees with is dogma / religion and labeled it the New World Translation (which can be proved from older versions of the NWT).

There are several websites (mostly by former Jehovah's Witnesses) who can set the record straight about the WTBS and the Trinity.

You said we are the religious dogmatists, I challenge you to go against your religious dogma and seek out the information provided for people who were in the Watchtower and who have left (which the WTBS deems apostates and tells you to avoid them which is nothing but WTBS religious dogma).

If you cannot bring yourself to investigate their arguments against the WTBS then you are the victim of religious dogma more than you realize.

http://www.watchman.org/prOfile/jwpro.htm
http://www.xjw.com/
http://www.jwinfoline.com/Page/audio.htm
http://www.jwinfoline.com/audio/teaching/peter_barnes_nwt.mp3 (I met and protested with Peter Barnes at the JW convention in San Diego @ 1995... Mr. Barnes was JW for 30 years and even a Kingdom Hall Circuit Overseer in Britain before he found the Truth and became a Christian with a burden for his former WT brethren)

 

[johnd]

I didn't either til just now.

I have a couple copies on my shelf behind me . . . I have an old one that has all the predetermined evangelistic lines in the back for different beliefs
(if you speak to a Muslim you say this . . . to a Christian you say this . . .) and common JW's apologetic arguements.

Interesting is that when you compare older versions to newer versions you can see where they revised the text in several places! I guess no one taught them to not put in print their errors for people to look back on!

Excellent!!

Do your copies show the translational variances NWT? Where the WBTS retranslated the NWT where it did not reflect predetermined WT dogma and religion?

 

[Nadiine]

Not a dodge at all . . . no smoke screen . . . the text of Philippians shows quite well the willing self limitation of the Son.

Phil 2:5-9
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

the "emptied" (ekenosen, why we call the passage the "kenosis" passage) is the laying aside, not considering His equality with God something to willfully contend for, ergo He lays aside/empties certain aspects of Himself to become HUMAN.

it is this willing taking on of human-ness that gives understanding to the passages where He experiences the varying limitations of Humanity . . . fatigue, hunger, tiredness, lack of some knowledge (w/o impartation by the Spirit), etc. He came just as us so that He may atone for us . . . fits together marvelously.

So much for a smoke screen huh? This is a solid answer . . . you may not agree (actually it would surprise me if you did agree) but it is a solid answer nonetheless.

Ain't the truth amazing!?!
Exactly.

This fits perfectly with what His mission was - it was also to experience all our limitations in order to be our High Priest.

There's nothing like the thought of a snobby, out of touch rich politician or CEO of a large company 'coming down' to the common person's level and actually experiencing what they expierence living where they live, or doing the same jobs they do to be able to get a practical understanding of those they employ or govern over.
Being in touch with people on a relational level.

God obviously sees the importance of relating to His own Creation firsthand. Amazing stuff. It really blows my mind.

 

[Nadiine]

Wow . . . I just totally realized that your pic is of the Jehovah's Witnesses bible . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness? (it would actually explain alot)

You can read that?

I've noticed in alot of Trinity/nonTrinity debates that most people use identical arguments Jeh. Wit.'s do even when they aren't Jeh. Wit.'s (in my experience anyways)

 

[johnd]

You can read that?

I've noticed in alot of Trinity/nonTrinity debates that most people use identical arguments Jeh. Wit.'s do even when they aren't Jeh. Wit.'s (in my experience anyways)

Sure. Look at it yourself

here's a brown one

"New World Translation
of the
Holy Scriptures"

Cool bio, btw.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Excellent!!

Do your copies show the translational variances NWT? Where the WBTS retranslated the NWT where it did not reflect predetermined WT dogma and religion?

I haven't scrutinized mine that closely . . .