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Did Jesus claim Divinity?

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Nadiine

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I'll take a look at this. As far as the question, have your teachers ever asked you a question that they already knew the answer to? ;)
& Like.......... after Adam & Eve ate the fruit in the garden... how God asked where they were?

Did God NOT know where Adam & Eve were?
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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That is true when one wants another to admit he knows something....

But, the real reason for asking a question is to learn something that one does not know!

Before Jesus raised Lazarus, He wanted to know where his body was laid... He said, "Where have you laid him?"

If Jesus already knew why ask the question?... Do you think He wanted to make Lazarus' family admit they knew where they laid his body?

But, the real reason for asking a question is to learn something that one does not know!

Hmm . . . guess you have never heard of a rhetorical question?

I ask my children questions that I know the answer to all the time . . . I ask not for my own sake . . . but for their's.

If Jesus already knew why ask the question?...

He did not know . . . but that is what Philippians 2 and the kenosis is all about. God willingly taking on the limits of man . . .
 
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Nadiine

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Hmm . . . guess you have never heard of a rhetorical question?

I ask my children questions that I know the answer to all the time . . . I ask not for my own sake . . . but for their's.



He did not know . . . but that is what Philippians 2 and the kenosis is all about. God willingly taking on the limits of man . . .
.............. and back to the drawing board.

I'll check back tomorrow for more refutations that go nowhere and are dispelled
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Jesus asked questions because he is not God almighty.... He is not all knowing....

And you must then believe that the Bible affirms that there are many Gods . . . funny how you accuse us of being pantheists . . . but yet your own affirmations show that you believe what you falsely accuse us of believing . . . how ironic.:thumbsup:

Cause Jesus is called god . . . but not god almighty:p . . .

sumthin stinketh :sick:
 
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Gary51

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Hmm . . . guess you have never heard of a rhetorical question?

I ask my children questions that I know the answer to all the time . . . I ask not for my own sake . . . but for their's.



He did not know . . . but that is what Philippians 2 and the kenosis is all about. God willingly taking on the limits of man . . .
Hi kids, where's you mom....

Oh kids, that was a rhetorical question... LOL

Man says to shop keeper, "Do you have any bananas".... A rhetorical question... lol

I have to say your sometimes funny... I'm not even sure if you are having me on.
 
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Gary51

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.............. and back to the drawing board.

I'll check back tomorrow for more refutations that go nowhere and are dispelled
Maybe would would care to explain what Jesus meant when He asked Lazarus' family where they laid his body....

Should be interesting!
 
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Nadiine

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Maybe would would care to explain what Jesus meant when He asked Lazarus' family where they laid his body....

Should be interesting!
oh my -- nevermind that JESUS KNOWS ALL MEN'S HEARTS... (I quoted that earlier).

It is impossible for MAN to know the heart of anyone (in fact, scripture teaches that we can't even know our own heart becuz it's desperately wicked).
If we don't know our own hearts, or others, how does Jesus know everyone's hearts?

That tells me AGAIN that Jesus is God, but was operating in His HUMAN NATURE. Don't forget again that we already specified that Jesus was FULLY relying on the Father above in what to say and do. He was being led by the Father in His mission down here.

You keep negating the 2 natures - the bible CLEARLY and unequivically teaches 2 separate natures, calling Him GOD outright, AND possessing the divine attributes that ONLY God has which ONLY God can do.

ONLY the Father knows the Son and ONLY the Son knows the Father - they are ONE.

Again, what you're professing here in your post is that your bible refutes itself and is completely contradictory. Becuz we're told that we do not know anyone's heart/inner motive and conscience and knowledge given them (much less our own heart), yet Christ knows all mens hearts.

Again, unless there are 2 natures at work in the same person, your bible is a complete mess, teaching heresy and contradiction everywhere.

Either accept what it says in ALL areas, or you should reject it as anything useful to teach truth.

Heb. 2
Jesus Briefly Humbled

9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,
because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

John 1:14
[ The Word Becomes Flesh ] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

These scriptures explain the 2nd [human] nature Jesus willingly took on. He BECAME a man for this mission of salvation. Taking on flesh was mandatory for this mission, thus, He operated in that human nature to experience what man experiences, become High Priest, and becomes a MEDIATOR for us in personally understanding what His human creation goes thru.
He becomes sympathetic and understanding to our limitations that HE Himself experienced.

Do you see the mission ? If you don't grasp His mission, you cannot grasp His nature or purpose.
 
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Yekcidmij

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My earlier post about Jesus' trial seems to have gotten lost in the mix:


Matt 26:60 But they did not find anything, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward 26:61 and declared, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’” 26:62 So the high priest stood up and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that they are testifying against you?” 26:63 But Jesus was silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? Now you have heard the blasphemy! 26:66 What is your verdict?” They answered, “He is guilty and deserves death.”


So Jesus had been fooling around in the temple, turning over tables, telling parables about it's destruction, etc.. Since the Messiah was expected to build or rebuild the temple, Caiaphas' question is a natural one, "Are you the Messiah"? The response Jesus gives is a little odd. In a round about way He says the high priest said it then he quotes from Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 to further explain Himself.

NRSV said:
Psalm 110:1 YHWH says to Adonai, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."

An interesting quote, but Jesus next quote from Daniel 7 makes it even more interesting:

Dan 7:13 I was watching in the night visions,
“And with the clouds of heaven
one like a son of man was approaching.
He went up to the Ancient of Days
and was escorted before him.
7:14 To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty.
All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him.
His authority is eternal and will not pass away.
His kingdom will not be destroyed.

Jesus is telling Caiaphas that He is the "Son of Man" figure, a favorite title for Himself too, in Daniel 7. Jesus uses this double quote to make the shocking claim that He is going to be sharing the throne of Israel's God. Not only that, but in ever other Old Testament passage that describes someone as riding on a cloud, it's always YHWH - except this one in Dan 7.

Deut 33:26 There is no one like God, O Jeshurun,
who rides through the sky to help you,
on the clouds in majesty.

Psalm 68:32 O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God!
Sing praises to the Lord, (Selah)
68:33 to the one who rides through the sky from ancient times!
Look! He thunders loudly.
68:34 Acknowledge God’s power,
his sovereignty over Israel,
and the power he reveals in the skies!

Psalm 104:1 Praise YHWH, O my soul!
O YHWH my God, you are magnificent.
You are robed in splendor and majesty.
104:2 He covers himself with light as if it were a garment.
He stretches out the skies like a tent curtain,
104:3 and lays the beams of the upper rooms of his palace on the rain clouds.
He makes the clouds his chariot,
and travels along on the wings of the wind.
104:4 He makes the winds his messengers,
and the flaming fire his attendant.

Isaiah 19:1 Here is a message about Egypt:
Look, YHWH rides on a swift-moving cloud
and approaches Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him;
the Egyptians lose their courage.

Also of note, Israel was led by a pillar of cloud during the Exodus. In other ancient near east societies, anyone riding on the clouds was always a deity (eg: Ba'al, Ra).


And Matt 26 isn't the only place where Jesus specifically identifies Himself as the figure in Dan 7:

Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


It would be interesting to know how people who deny Jesus' claims of divinity deal with this. You should also explain Daniel 7 and why Daniel sees "one like a son of man" riding on the clouds instead of YHWH and what that could possibly mean.

Daniel's vision isn't the only strange one like that either. See Ezekiel's vision in Ezekiel 1 where He describes His vision of YHWH riding on a chariot throne. Ezekiel describes the chariot throne from the ground up and finishes the description with:

Eze 1:26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man

Why does Daniel see a "son of man" type of figure riding on the clouds and more importantly, why is Jesus identifying Himself with such a figure?
 
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scriptures

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Then your bible lies elsewhere I guess. Once again, you cannot promote your beliefs without making the bible false elsewhere. Rending your bible a heretical mess.

John 21:17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.

Acts 1:24
(context is of Christ)And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

John 16;30
30"Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God."

Mt 11:27
27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

He isn't almighty God?

.

Here's another example of wrong conclusion...By knowing the heart of men does not mean Jesus is almighty God himself... It just mean the he came out from God (not God himself).... Look at this conclusion quoted by you....

(Joh 16:30 LITV) Now we know that You know all things and have no need that anyone question You. By this we believe that You came out from God.

See!!! error and error because of preconcieved doctrine.....
 
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scriptures

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U miss the point entirely . . . I did not ask you what you felt about what we believe or whether or not you feel it is biblical . . . I TOLD you that what you DID represent as our beliefs is GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.

And if you cannot take the time to articulate it right . . . or at least try to understand it, even if you do not agree, then you know nothing of grace dude . . . and your posits are vain.

Gross Misrepresentation???? It's not... it's camouflage....It can never be admitted....
 
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scriptures

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And you must then believe that the Bible affirms that there are many Gods . . . funny how you accuse us of being pantheists . . . but yet your own affirmations show that you believe what you falsely accuse us of believing . . . how ironic.:thumbsup:

Cause Jesus is called god . . . but not god almighty:p . . .

sumthin stinketh :sick:

As I told you.... you will not admit it......Three Gods camouflage as one God....
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Gross Misrepresentation???? It's not... it's camouflage....It can never be admitted....

Yep . . . you have no understanding of what we really believe . . . your lack of humility to even TRY and get what we believe rightly represented is a complete strawman . . . your logic is errant, everyway you turn.

I suggest you return to the cross homeboy.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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As I told you.... you will not admit it......Three Gods camouflage as one God....

As I told you . . . gross misrepresentation . . . your accusations have no foundation . . . try again.

O THEOS means THE GOD . . . period.

I will side with the Bible . . .
 
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Nadiine

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As I told you . . . gross misrepresentation . . . your accusations have no foundation . . . try again.

O THEOS means THE GOD . . . period.

I will side with the Bible . . .
exactly. Calling Jesus ANY type of "god/God" is heresy if He is only man and no deity whatsoever.

This is the contradiction they keep promoting with their bibles when they make their theology.

Either the Bible is heretical, or they need to get a new theology going that is compliant with all the scriptures.
 
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Nadiine

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My earlier post about Jesus' trial seems to have gotten lost in the mix:
That's common in these threads when people ignore what you offer to promote their own arguments instead.
The usual, ignore yours to offer theirs - they cannot explain why yours exists and how it supports THEIR belief. This is the difference with Trinitarians, anything nonTrins use, WE EXPLAIN TO COINCIDE WITH ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES. That is key imo. All they can do is ignore yours to throw out more verses that they think refute yours.
(ie, they've done nothing but prove the Bible is self refuting).

You make awesome arguments with those verses. The link goes to your post, hope people check it out
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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exactly. Calling Jesus ANY type of "god/God" is heresy if He is only man and no deity whatsoever.

This is the contradiction they keep promoting with their bibles when they make their theology.

Either the Bible is heretical, or they need to get a new theology going that is compliant with all the scriptures.

Yep.

Nice how they completely disregard the plethora of texts that clearly contradict what they espouse . . .

guess the Bible isn't fully inspired . . .
 
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Gary51

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oh my -- nevermind that JESUS KNOWS ALL MEN'S HEARTS... (I quoted that earlier).

It is impossible for MAN to know the heart of anyone (in fact, scripture teaches that we can't even know our own heart becuz it's desperately wicked).
If we don't know our own hearts, or others, how does Jesus know everyone's hearts?

That tells me AGAIN that Jesus is God, but was operating in His HUMAN NATURE. Don't forget again that we already specified that Jesus was FULLY relying on the Father above in what to say and do. He was being led by the Father in His mission down here.

You keep negating the 2 natures - the bible CLEARLY and unequivically teaches 2 separate natures, calling Him GOD outright, AND possessing the divine attributes that ONLY God has which ONLY God can do.

ONLY the Father knows the Son and ONLY the Son knows the Father - they are ONE.

Again, what you're professing here in your post is that your bible refutes itself and is completely contradictory. Becuz we're told that we do not know anyone's heart/inner motive and conscience and knowledge given them (much less our own heart), yet Christ knows all mens hearts.

Again, unless there are 2 natures at work in the same person, your bible is a complete mess, teaching heresy and contradiction everywhere.

Either accept what it says in ALL areas, or you should reject it as anything useful to teach truth.

Heb. 2
Jesus Briefly Humbled

9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,
because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

John 1:14
[ The Word Becomes Flesh ] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

These scriptures explain the 2nd [human] nature Jesus willingly took on. He BECAME a man for this mission of salvation. Taking on flesh was mandatory for this mission, thus, He operated in that human nature to experience what man experiences, become High Priest, and becomes a MEDIATOR for us in personally understanding what His human creation goes thru.
He becomes sympathetic and understanding to our limitations that HE Himself experienced.

Do you see the mission ? If you don't grasp His mission, you cannot grasp His nature or purpose.
WHERE IS MY ANSWER....

I said, "Why did Jesus ask Lazarus' family where they laid his body..."

Stop telling me what I cannot grasp... It is just a dodge.... Answer this simple question.... Or are you afraid it might make you think?

Again, "WHY DID JESUS ASK LAZARUS' FAMILY WHERE HIS BODY WAS"


 
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