Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Gary51]

If I was not taking you seriously I would not have the decency to point out the flaws in your arguments and claims. If I was not taking you seriously, I would do you disrespect and simply laugh at them, mock them, ignore them, or start attacking your character- all of which are immature choices. What is your choice?

You either didn't take the pill, or it didn't work...

Maybe you should double the dose!

 

[Gary51]

Gary.... just keep on posting.... I am learning a lot from you....

Gary, take a look at this site.....

[URL="http://www.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/j2028/"]http://www.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/j2028/[/URL]

Thanks for that interesting link.

 

[Gary51]

You know, I did not say that Jesus said I am God word for word. I said that he said 'I am' which is what I was asking you to explain.

Those that believe Jesus is God cling to the "I am" quote with such desperation.

Jesus did not claim to be God... He did not say "I am God", as you admit. So in a desperate search thought scripture you find the "I am" line and interpret incorectly to fit your false belief.

"Before Abraham I am"... Jesus was God's first thought... Jesus was God's first creation. Jesus was before Abraham!

Jesus is God's only begotten Son... BEGOTTEN.

Then you just admitted that Jesus thought He was God.

I don't think so... so show me where.

Thus, Jesus' 'I am' statements mean the same thing as 'I am God'

No, it means you don't understand!

My brother Kevin, is five years younger than me...

Before Kevin, I am...

 

[Hentenza]

Those that believe Jesus is God cling to the "I am" quote with such desperation.

Jesus did not claim to be God... He did not say "I am God", as you admit. So in a desperate search thought scripture you find the "I am" line and interpret incorectly to fit your false belief.

"Before Abraham I am"... Jesus was God's first thought... Jesus was God's first creation. Jesus was before Abraham!

Jesus is God's only begotten Son... BEGOTTEN.


I don't think so... so show me where.

No, it means you don't understand!

My brother Kevin, is five years younger than me...

Before Kevin, I am...

Gary,

What are the attributes of God?

 

[yashualover]

How could someone deny that Jesus is divine after reading the following verse.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.
Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.

 

[JoyJuice]

How could someone deny that Jesus is divine after reading the following verse.

Joh 17:3And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.
Joh 17:4I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.

Oh yes, there is a statement that points to divinity through God.
Yet, this idea in this era were a dime a dozen given varying individuals.

 

[Hentenza]

I've cover this before and am yet to get an answer. The truth is that Jesus never uttered the exact words "I am God". Does this mean that He IS not God? Did Jesus actually have to be that specific? Do you have faith in God the Father and God the son?

Here are some thoughts to ponder.

1. Jesus did not correct the Pharisees that accused Him of blasphemy. Blasphemy to the Pharisees was to claim to be God (see John 10). Why didn't Jesus correct the Pharisees? All He had to say was "Look guys, I am not God so put away your stones".

2. John says in John 1:1 that the Word was God and then in verse 14 John says the Word became flesh. Do you think that John is just simply mistaken? John certainly knew that Jesus is God. What makes you think that you know better than John?

3. Thomas comes to the realization that Jesus is God when he proclaims to Jesus "my Lord and My God". Thomas knew and he was a doubter like a lot of you here. When will you come to the same realization?

4. In Revelation 19:10 the angel tells John to only worship God. Jesus receives worship several times in scripture but never rebukes anyone for it. If Jesus was not God then He would defer the worship to only the Father but He doesn't. Why is that?

5. In Hebrews 1:8 the Father declares Jesus God. Do you doubt the Father? Is the Father mistaken?

Combine the above with the more traditional verses where Jesus says "I am" and "before Abraham I am" and others and the preponderance of the evidence points at Jesus being God. It takes a lot more faith to believe that Jesus is not God than to believe that He is God.

The writer in Titus 2:11-14 certainly knew that Jesus is God:
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

 

[Gary51]

Blasphemy to the Pharisees was to claim to be God

Where did you get that idea? That is really quite ridiculous.... Was it so common to go around claiming to be God, that it was given the name blasphemy?

Pleaseeee..... Blasphemy takes many forms...

The Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming to be equal to God... not God...

If they thought He was claiming to be God, they would have thought Him insane!

 

[Hentenza]

Where did you get that idea? That is really quite ridiculous.... Was it so common to go around claiming to be God, that it was given the name blasphemy?

Pleaseeee..... Blasphemy takes many forms...

The Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming to be equal to God... not God...

If they thought He was claiming to be God, they would have thought Him insane!

LOL!!! Is that the only part of my post that you question? How about responding to the rest of my post.

 

[Gary51]

LOL!!! Is that the only part of my post that you question? How about responding to the rest of my post.

Why?... We are miles apart... that should be obvious.

I picked on that part of you post as a starting point.

Slowly, slowly, catch a monkey!

 

[Hentenza]

Why?... We are miles apart... that should be obvious.

I picked on that part of you post as a starting point.

Slowly, slowly, catch a monkey!

John 10:33
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Monkey is getting away.

 

[Zebra1552]

You either didn't take the pill, or it didn't work...

Maybe you should double the dose!

Perhaps we can have a civil conversation without getting off topic?

Those that believe Jesus is God cling to the "I am" quote with such desperation.

Jesus did not claim to be God... He did not say "I am God", as you admit. So in a desperate search thought scripture you find the "I am" line and interpret incorectly to fit your false belief.

Then perhaps you would like to show me how it is false rather than simply making the claim?

"Before Abraham I am"... Jesus was God's first thought... Jesus was God's first creation. Jesus was before Abraham!

Jesus is God's only begotten Son... BEGOTTEN.

How do you explain the fact that Paul considered Jesus equal to God (Phillipians 2:5-7, see bottom of post)?

I don't think so... so show me where.

Right here:

The Jews' wanted to stone Jesus for making himself equal to God!

You said Jesus was making himself equal to God. If two things are equal they cannot be different. Jesus cannot be God and not God. Jesus cannot be equal to God and not equal to God. This is the law of identity in logic.

No, it means you don't understand!

My brother Kevin, is five years younger than me...

Before Kevin, I am...

Do not accuse me of not understanding things unless you have proof that you understand things more logically than I do.

Philippians 2:5-7:
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

 

[Gary51]

Perhaps we can have a civil conversation without getting off topic?

Lets see...

Then perhaps you would like to show me how it is false rather than simply making the claim?

That fact the Jesus never said the words "I am God" anywhere in the Bible, is it's own proof, therefore my claim is proven!

How do you explain the fact that Paul considered Jesus equal to God (Phillipians 2:5-7, see bottom of post)?

What's to explain?... Jesus is equal to God. But He is not God.... Two beings being equal does not make one being!

Right here:

Boy you're hard work. My saying that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they thought He was making Himself equal to God... does not mean I think He is God.... See above quote.

You said Jesus was making himself equal to God. If two things are equal they cannot be different.

Lol.... Sorry for laughing but that's really quite amusing. Have you never heard of equal rights? May I suggest you look up the word in a dictionary. Two things can be equal... they can also be identical, but they are still two things.

But, you have not read my post right have you?

I said, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, because they thought He was making Himself equal to God... So I never said, Jesus was making Himself equal to God, Did I?

Jesus cannot be God and not God.

Correct.... He is not God. He is the Son of God.

Jesus cannot be equal to God and not equal to God.

Actually He can be... But He never said that, what He did say was, "The Father is greater than I am"

This is the law of identity in logic.

Would that be your logic?

Do not accuse me of not understanding things unless you have proof that you understand things more logically than I do.

Is that more of your logic?

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

I dare not imagine how you interpret that verse!

Remember this, I was talking about what the Jews thought. It was you that got all bent out of shape, and took the wrong turn.

 

[Disippelen]

I believe that lots of people have given good arguments for the divinity of Christ. I even gave sources that suggest this from a non-Christian point of view. I hope that Gary would take the time to properly answer all the argumentation which Hentenza and Godschild etc. bring up. It could be interesting to see.

Best,
Disippelen

 

[Milk]

I've always been curious how Trinitarians explain Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. Satan tries to tempt Jesus by offering him the world. This makes absolutely no sense if Jesus is the Creator of the universe. A created being offering God the world is a ridiculous concept...unless I'm missing something.

 

[Zebra1552]

Lets see...

That fact the Jesus never said the words "I am God" anywhere in the Bible, is it's own proof, therefore my claim is proven!

The fact that other people claim that Jesus claimed to be God, shown to you at least twice, casts doubt on your 'proven' claim.

What's to explain?... Jesus is equal to God. But He is not God.... Two beings being equal does not make one being!

You just contradicted yourself. You cannot be equal yet not equal. It is illogical and impossible.

Boy you're hard work. My saying that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they thought He was making Himself equal to God... does not mean I think He is God.... See above quote.

Equal to God and being God are the same thing.

Lol.... Sorry for laughing but that's really quite amusing. Have you never heard of equal rights? May I suggest you look up the word in a dictionary. Two things can be equal... they can also be identical, but they are still two things.

They are still the same two things, not two separate and different things. They are the same. If A is equal to A, it cannot be B, so to speak.

But, you have not read my post right have you?

If I had not read your post

I said, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, because they thought He was making Himself equal to God... So I never said, Jesus was making Himself equal to God, Did I?

So now you are implying that a crowd of Jews was crazy and were hearing things when they heard what Jesus said? Very unlikely, given that they are backed by the writings of Paul, seen in my last post.

Correct.... He is not God. He is the Son of God.

You keep claiming he is not God, yet you keep capitalizing 'He'. Usually people do that when they are referring to God. And anyhow, you still have not proven your claim of him not being God.

Actually He can be... But He never said that, what He did say was, "The Father is greater than I am"

That is a different member of the Trinity. All parts of the Trinity are God, but not all parts are Jesus. Or the Father.

Would that be your logic?


Is that more of your logic?

Please refer to this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_identity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
In logic, the law of identity states that an object is the same as itself: A ≡ A

I dare not imagine how you interpret that verse!

Remember this, I was talking about what the Jews thought. It was you that got all bent out of shape, and took the wrong turn.

I do not get bent out of shape when people argue illogically. I do debate them and argue logically in return. Before you respond to this, you might want to add up just the Scripture that has been presented.

 

[Gary51]

I've always been curious how Trinitarians explain Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. Satan tries to tempt Jesus by offering him the world. This makes absolutely no sense if Jesus is the Creator of the universe. A created being offering God the world is a ridiculous concept...unless I'm missing something.

You are missing nothing... Spot on!

 

[Zebra1552]

I've always been curious how Trinitarians explain Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. Satan tries to tempt Jesus by offering him the world. This makes absolutely no sense if Jesus is the Creator of the universe. A created being offering God the world is a ridiculous concept...unless I'm missing something.

Satan is the god of this age- he owns the earth because of the fall. That's how. It's in Paul's writings:
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

The thing Jesus was being tempted with was not getting the entire world- it was getting the entire world sooner than God the Father wanted him to.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

"My God!" the anointed one of God can't be God himself.... did you get the point, brother???

Um . . . to the Jew to simply exclaim "MY GOD . . ." would be taking His name in vein and be tantamount to blapshemy.

Sorry chief . . . it says what it says. Thomas calls Jesus, his God . . . and not only . . . but O THEOS . . . that is THE definite article . . . that is THE GOD.

Argue with John . . .

 

[Milk]

Satan is the god of this age- he owns the earth because of the fall. That's how.

The only way Satan can "own" the earth is if God gives it to him - unless you believe in a God who is not omnipotent. Otherwise, it is God who allows Satan to operate on the earth. So, again, Satan offering the Creator of the universe possession of his own world is ridiculous. Not only this, Satan thinks it a possiblity that Jesus (God) will worship him. LOL. This makes no sense.

The thing Jesus was being tempted with was not getting the entire world- it was getting the entire world sooner than God the Father wanted him to.

You speak as if Jesus and God are two seperate beings.