Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Milk]

Epiphoskei,

Does Jesus not understand that his Father (and presumably himself) is in reality in total control of satan - who is a mere created being and absolutely no match for God? Also, I'm just curious. Do Trinitarians believe God has 2 or 3 different wills?

 

[Disippelen]

Disippelen -
Of course he lost, he's going against an omnipotent God. This is also a ridiculous concept.

Satan lost, yes, and he's a loser. But he's limited, he maybe thought it would be successful to take down God. Aren't also many humans stupid in blaspheming God and trying to be "gods" themselves?

The fact that Satan tried to depose God proves of course that he isn't as wise as God (naturally), but it shows that he had clear intentions of doing great evil.

How do you fool God? Do you see how offering the world to the Creator of the world is a silly proposition?

I'm not saying that Satan could have fooled God, but he tried to nevertheless - why else would he be tempting him? Satan was desperate, he could guess that the service of Christ would ultimately lead to the salvation of humans - and Satan who is himself condemned, only works to take as many people as possible with him to hell.


Disipplen

 

[Gary51]

Satan is the god of this world... he is in control right now, and traditional Christianity has fallen for his deceptions.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Epiphoskei,

Does Jesus not understand that his Father (and presumably himself) is in reality in total control of satan - who is a mere created being and absolutely no match for God? Also, I'm just curious. Do Trinitarians believe God has 2 or 3 different wills?

Of course he understood it. But as I said, temptation has nothing to do with understanding. It's about flesh.

I'm not sure I follow your question about trinitarians and number of wills of God. I don't see that as a trinitarian issue.

 

[Milk]

Of course he understood it. But as I said, temptation has nothing to do with understanding. It's about flesh.

I'm not clear on this. What do you mean by "It's about flesh."

I'm not sure I follow your question about trinitarians and number of wills of God. I don't see that as a trinitarian issue.

I'm asking if Jesus, God the Father, and the HS all have seperate wills. Can Jesus have a different will from the Father? etc.

 

[Zebra1552]

We could save a little time if you would just explain how offering the world to the creator of the world is a logical proposition. But, from what I've gathered so far, you believe that Jesus, even though he is also God, was tempted to take the world back from Satan sooner than did God the Father. I'm curious do Trinitarians believe that God has 2 or 3 wills?

Wrong. I believe that Jesus, being fully God and also fully man, was tempted to take the world back from Satan and in doing so worship Satan rather than God the Father, and in this He would be breaking God the Father's will in two cases- not following God the Father's desires for his life, and worshiping someone not deserving of worship.

As far as '2 or 3 wills', no. God had an original purpose which is now implausible due to sin, and now has an 'alternate purpose', if you will. He has to work with plan B because plan A turned out how he knew it would- with Adam sinning. And that is to save and disciple as many as possible... See how it all ties together with the rest of the Bible, even the parts you claim are morally bankrupt? Of course God does not want to take anyone's life, but since there is sin in the world he has to in order that his plan B can work.

PS:
Gary, I am giving you what you are now refusing to respond to, not more of the same. I am arguing the same thing from a different angle because you have blown off some of the other angles.

 

[Milk]

So, are you saying that Jesus was tempted because he is also fully human? This doesn't seem to add up, unless Jesus some how completely forgot about his God-nature.

What I am trying to say about the "wills" is it seems you are describing Jesus' will to take back the world from Satan as not quite inline with the Father's will. They are of two minds.

 

[Zebra1552]

So, are you saying that Jesus was tempted because he is also fully human? This doesn't seem to add up, unless Jesus some how completely forgot about his God-nature.

What I am trying to say about the "wills" is it seems you are describing Jesus' will to take back the world from Satan as not quite inline with the Father's will. They are of two minds.

What you are trying to say has no merit. Jesus did not give into the temptation, so Jesus' 'will' was to reject Satan's offer:
Matthew 4:8-10 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

PS:
Revelations talks about the Lamb of God, Jesus, ruling the world. But at a set time which has not come yet. That is both Jesus' and the Father's will.

 

[Hentenza]

Satan is the god of this world... he is in control right now, and traditional Christianity has fallen for his deceptions.

Opinions and supposition. Got any evidence to back this up?

 

[Milk]

What you are trying to say has no merit. Jesus did not give into the temptation, so Jesus' 'will' was to reject Satan's offer

Of course he rejected Satan's offer. He's God right. It's totally ridiculous. We're still left with Satan tempting God. This is silly.

 

[Zebra1552]

Opinions and supposition. Got any evidence to back this up?

Which, the God of this world part, or the bit about traditional Christianity? If it is the former, I already posted a verse.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Of course he rejected Satan's offer. He's God right. It's totally ridiculous. We're still left with Satan tempting God. This is silly.

Not God simply . . . theanthropos . . . God-man.

Phil 2 makes the case that Jesus willingly submitted His incommunicable attributes to the incarnation that He may be made as us. So, He grows, hungers, tires. The deity lay "dormant" if you will . . . He humbled Himself to complete obedience and dependance upon the Father and the Spirit to act in conjunction to the will of the Father.

Yes there are multiple wills in the sense of persona . . . distinction but NOT separation, hence Jesus can pray "not My will but thine." It is the mystery of God becoming man and then remaining both man and God for eternity.

One must always keep in view the reason FOR the incarnation as well . . . He came as us that He may save us . . . He remained as God that He may touch both parties in reconciliation . . . the perfect bridge.

 

[Zebra1552]

Of course he rejected Satan's offer. He's God right. It's totally ridiculous. We're still left with Satan tempting God. This is silly.

You are left with a man, hungry from fasting for 40 days and no doubt tired, being tempted to receive the whole world via worshiping Satan. Otherwise it would not be called temptation. Do you think God is some kind of rock with no emotions whatsoever?

 

[Epiphoskei]

I'm not clear on this. What do you mean by "It's about flesh."

Temptation is human. It's not rational, it's human. Humans are not first and foremost creatures of reason. In fact, we tend to be very irrational. Satan tempted Jesus, who already (regardless of if he is God or not) is heir of the world. If Jesus is God, he owns the world. If he isn't God, even as "heir of creation," he still owns the world. So of course it's a pretty stupid, unreasonable offer, either way. But Satan isn't appealing to Christ's reason, he's appealing to His human nature and the weaknesses that come with it.

I'm asking if Jesus, God the Father, and the HS all have seperate wills. Can Jesus have a different will from the Father? etc.

Trinitarianism doesn't claim to have a blueprint for the mechanics behind the trinity. He made us, we did not make him. Understanding that any economy in which 1=3=1 is not likely to be understandable, there are questions like this that are rarely broached.

 

[Gary51]

Opinions and supposition. Got any evidence to back this up?

Open your eyes and what do you see.... War... Death... Famine.... Sickness... Sadness... Immorality... Hate... World Disasters... Deception.... Shall I go on?

Are these the traites of a loving God or Satan?

 

[scriptures]

Not God simply . . . theanthropos . . . God-man.

Phil 2 makes the case that Jesus willingly submitted His incommunicable attributes to the incarnation that He may be made as us. So, He grows, hungers, tires. The deity lay "dormant" if you will . . . He humbled Himself to complete obedience and dependance upon the Father and the Spirit to act in conjunction to the will of the Father.

Yes there are multiple wills in the sense of persona . . . distinction but NOT separation, hence Jesus can pray "not My will but thine." It is the mystery of God becoming man and then remaining both man and God for eternity.

One must always keep in view the reason FOR the incarnation as well . . . He came as us that He may save us . . . He remained as God that He may touch both parties in reconciliation . . . the perfect bridge.

theanthropos???? high sounding.... but unbiblical.......

 

[scriptures]

Opinions and supposition. Got any evidence to back this up?

of course, Gary has.....all you have to do is get your concordance....

 

[Gary51]

all you have to do is get your concordance....

Free concordance... come and get it...

http://www.concordant.org/version/html.html

 

[Gary51]

With regard to those who think Thomas called Jesus, God....

Lets face it, Thomas wasn't the sharpest tool in the box, was he?

He'd seen Jesus turn water into wine, walk on water, give sight to the blind, feed five thousand with a hand full of fish and bread, raise Lazarus from the dead, and yet he still doubted that Jesus stood before him...

I have already extrapolated, and stated the most likely truth, in post #105.

Praise Jesus the only begotten Son of God...

Praise the Father for sending His Son.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Did Jesus claim divinity.
He said a number of things which are proof of His divinity and yes He did claim it.
He said no-one has seen the Father except the Son and before Abraham 'I AM'