Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Evidently Jesus thinks a lot is wrong with it. He creates in us a new creation.

Try answering the question.

 

[Hammster]

To change one's mind means we decide. We choose. If you can't see that, you are missing the forest for the trees.

That’s not the argument you made. You tried to use scripture to make a point. There’s no way to come to the conclusion that you did from those verses.

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't matter what is good or bad about our nature, if God gave us the ability to choose, then we have it. Now with that ability we can accept His offer of eternal life by simply deciding we accept Jesus's gift to us. The choice is our way we can dump the old nature and accept His new life.

So, you have no idea. Fair enough. Scripture addresses it, though, so you should look into it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Try answering the question.

God needs to make a new creation in us for many reasons.

One being because we have changed ownership from the darkness to the Light. We still have our sin nature of the flesh (ego, selfishness, greed) and God created a new creature by putting His Law on our and in our hearts. Changing us from the inside out.

Another reason is that we need the Vine to get our spiritual strength, hence “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”. Our spirits and souls are enriched by God.

We are given the indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, pray for us when we know not what to pray for ourselves, lead us to repentance (changing our minds hopefully), leading us in Truth in God’s Word.

Christ justifies us by giving us His Perfect standing before God as our Advocate.

These are off the top of my head, I’m sure if I thought more I would think of more

 

[ToBeLoved]

Try answering the question.

So what’s your answer?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, you have no idea. Fair enough. Scripture addresses it, though, so you should look into it.

The non Calvinist does not NEED to address it because our theology is that through free will upon hearing the gospel, one believes and comes to Christ.

Your theology is the only one that has to address it.

Our theology provides the clear Biblical path.

Your theology has God intervening.

 

[ToBeLoved]

They were well known for a reason. Their writings weren’t just discovered in the 60’s.

The “organization” of that theology became popular only fairly recently.

Listen to what I am saying

 

[Hammster]

God needs to make a new creation in us for many reasons.

One being because we have changed ownership from the darkness to the Light. We still have our sin nature of the flesh (ego, selfishness, greed) and God created a new creature by putting His Law on our and in our hearts. Changing us from the inside out.

Another reason is that we need the Vine to get our spiritual strength, hence “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”. Our spirits and souls are enriched by God.

We are given the indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, pray for us when we know not what to pray for ourselves, lead us to repentance (changing our minds hopefully), leading us in Truth in God’s Word.

Christ justifies us by giving us His Perfect standing before God as our Advocate.

These are off the top of my head, I’m sure if I thought more I would think of more

Those are good reasons. It shows how horrible we are in the flesh. Which is why we can’t please God in the flesh and need to be born again before we can.

 

[Hammster]

The non Calvinist does not NEED to address it because our theology is that through free will upon hearing the gospel, one believes and comes to Christ.

Your theology is the only one that has to address it.

Our theology provides the clear Biblical path.

Your theology has God intervening.

Wait, didn’t you say that you pray for God to intervene in the unbeliever?

 

[Hammster]

The “organization” of that theology became popular only fairly recently.

Listen to what I am saying

I am, and you couldn’t be more wrong, which is what we are telling you. Canine of Dort. Westminster Confession of Faith. London Baptist Confession of Faith. Heidelberg Catechism. None of these are recent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Wait, didn’t you say that you pray for God to intervene in the unbeliever?

Yes. I talked about that a few pages back.

Faith comes by hearing so that a person’s heart may be open and softened to the gospel when heard.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am, and you couldn’t be more wrong, which is what we are telling you. Canine of Dort. Westminster Confession of Faith. London Baptist Confession of Faith. Heidelberg Catechism. None of these are recent.

Well than obviously John McArthur was telling a falsehood.

He claims to be a Calvinist and that the organization of reformed theology is fairly recent.

I’ll have to not listen to him anymore. Obviously after all these years in God’s Word he’s not promoting Reformed theology truthfully.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. I talked about that a few pages back.

Faith comes by hearing so that a person’s heart may be open and softened to the gospel when heard.

Opened by God? Isn’t that intervening?

And why is it even necessary?

 

[Hammster]

Well than obviously John McArthur was telling a falsehood.

He claims to be a Calvinist and that the organization of reformed theology is fairly recent.

I’ll have to not listen to him anymore. Obviously after all these years in God’s Word he’s not promoting Reformed theology truthfully.

Okay.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Opened by God? Isn’t that intervening?

And why is it even necessary?

No. Softened is probably the better word.

Why wouldn’t we pray for our loved ones to be saved?

If I pray for them to recover from sickness or that a surgery is successful, why would I not also pray for salvation?

God says He answers prayer and we have not, because we do not ask.

Seems like your trying to say something because we pray for it.

 

[redleghunter]

Well than obviously John McArthur was telling a falsehood.

He claims to be a Calvinist and that the organization of reformed theology is fairly recent.

I’ll have to not listen to him anymore. Obviously after all these years in God’s Word he’s not promoting Reformed theology truthfully.

As @Hammster mentioned Reformed theology has been around since the beginning of the Reformation which was in the 16th century.

MacArthur may have been talking about that resurgence of Reformed theology in many denominations such as the SBC.

Do you have a quote we can deal with?

I do know MacArthur spoke against easy believism and the Free Grace movement which prompted him to write a book on Lordship Salvation. About that time he also did a series on the Doctrines of Grace which is Reformed theology thus confirming his Reformed roots.

 

[dad]

Note that it doesn’t say that we can love because He first loved us. We do love because He first loved us. His love changed people.

Regardless if they chose Him?

 

[dad]

So, you have no idea. Fair enough. Scripture addresses it, though, so you should look into it.

It is a decision man is asked to make. That is what will change the nature of man. You seem to preach that He changes it of His Own accord, no permission needed.

 

[redleghunter]

This thread has gone beyond the OP.

I set up a thread where we can discuss the various choosing God theories.

How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

 

[dad]

That’s not the argument you made. You tried to use scripture to make a point. There’s no way to come to the conclusion that you did from those verses.

To see decisions in the bible look anywhere. Abraham decided to obey God. Noah also. Samson...well, his decisions were somewhat weak. Jonah decided to disobey, and also to obey...Herod decided to kill babies. Pilate decided to wash his hands of Jesus. Judas decided to sell out the Savior. Peter decided to deny Christ. Paul decided that Jesus was the way to go. Adam decided to eat the forbidden fruit. Enoch decided to walk with God.

For or against God, people have decided all through the bible and history. To claim our decisions are artificial, or bypassed, or not something God works with is false.