Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Well that’s the thing, since they feel “chosen” and know they have Christ then they feel that every one God doesn’t choose that’s ok.

But we cannot deny who God tells us HE is in the Bible. This is not ‘my opinion’ of who I think Christ is but 35 years of attending Bible-based churches and knowing and studying.

With all that, I am confident that I do know scripture and I do not see what Calvinist’s see. Now God does talk about predestination, but I believe that is because God is Omniscient. God knows all. Everything that ever was and everything that will ever be.

Just look at the book of Revelation. It talks about what will happen in the end times and when Jesus returns. Obviously God knows what is going to happen and it’s because of who He is. He knows all.

That’s my Biblical understanding from my studying.

Thanks for demonstrating that God knows things because He learns. That’s not really omniscience.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well why don’t you put forth the dates of when Reformed theology began as far as Calvinism with some proof. From reliable sources of course

Good day, ToBeLoved

You said"It was so rare that 50 years ago no one ever heard of Calvinism. But people want to hear what makes them feel special, so of course their are preachers that will preach it."

So to prove that is historically inaccurate I just need a source more than 50 years old.

So as Baptist here you go... 1644 London Baptist confession of faith.

1644 london baptist confession of faith

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

So there is the context. All men..everyone..and all those folks who do choose Jesus will be taught of the Father..etc. Nothing whatsoever in there that suggests we have no real choice.

Since everyone can and all men can, the Father makes them able if they accept Jesus!
No, the giving of the Father is the effective cause of our choice to come to Jesus!

From the rest of the chapter, and bible we know that is everyone who asks.

They are not able to go to heaven and come to Jesus because their hard hearts rejected Him and He only wants those who choose to love Him. Somewhat like a man and a woman, where the man does not force himself on the woman but must have her desire and approval. That is how God is, a Gentleman who gives us the total choice and who will not violate our free will choice.
That is available to all men. He sent Jesus to draw all men unto Himself, but not all men will choose life.

Not sure of your point, but of course He was born.
No. Those who believe on Him.
He only does all that if we ask!

After we freely choose Jesus He works in us and our faith grows.
It is so great it is for all men who ask. He did not die just for some people He pre picked!


Yes He will, if we choose His Way! (Jesus)

Good Day, dad

I will stick with Scripture.. while you ride your hobby horse.

Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

No one can.. means no one can.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I wonder if a Calvinist will deny this here, about people being pre destined to hell? If not, I guess they have to wear it.

Good Day, Dad

The proof is one you... remember no hyper Calvinist or Lutherans allowed,

Citation please, with primary source along with your understanding of the citation.

"
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”2 Luther continued:

When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.2

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence."

"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul

In Him,

Bill

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thanks for demonstrating that God knows things because He learns. That’s not really omniscience.

What specific part of my post shows as you say that I said anything close to “God knows things because He learns”?

I have no idea where you get that. I specifically said God knows ALL.

 

[Hammster]

What specific part of my post shows as you say that I said anything close to “God knows things because He learns”?

I have no idea where you get that. I specifically said God knows ALL.

You’re right. I misread that. My apologies.

 

[dad]

All I have is the evidence of how you use the phrase.

And your opinion of how it should be used.

 

[dad]

Yeah, but that doesn’t really address the question. If we are the choosers, and He is who is chosen, why are we referred to as chosen?

Because He then also chooses us! If we choose Him, He chooses us. He chose before the world began to make a way for those who choose Him to be saved, despite a possible wrong decision by Adam.

 

[dad]

So here we have it. Those in hell are just getting a raw deal and don’t really deserve it.

Bingo, if they never had a chance to receive or reject Jesus, that would be the case.

 

[dad]

No one can.. means no one can.

No one can unless they choose to, and Jesus made sure all men have that choice. So if those who choose Jesus are also drawn of the Father, that simply tells us that some men are responsive to His draw! Some are not. Our choice. He does not 'draw' us in with meat hooks.

 

[dad]

Good Day, Dad

The proof is one you... remember no hyper Calvinist or Lutherans allowed,

Citation please, with primary source along with your understanding of the citation.

"
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”2 Luther continued:

When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.2

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence."

"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul

In Him,

Bill

Hope that gobbley gook makes sense to you. Tell us now in your own words whether you think ' people are being pre destined to hell?' Yes or no. Simple.

 

[Hammster]

And your opinion of how it should be used.

All you have to do is actually read the times the phrase is used. It’s obvious that you haven’t.

 

[Hammster]

Because He then also chooses us! If we choose Him, He chooses us. He chose before the world began to make a way for those who choose Him to be saved, despite a possible wrong decision by Adam.

Scripture?

 

[Hammster]

Bingo, if they never had a chance to receive or reject Jesus, that would be the case.

It’s not that sin stuff that Christ went to the cross for. No, it’s choice.

 

[Hammster]

Hope that gobbley gook makes sense to you. Tell us now in your own words whether you think ' people are being pre destined to hell?' Yes or no. Simple.

God doesn’t need to predestine anyone to hell. That’s what sinners deserve. The only way He might need to would be if we all started out neutral. But that’s not the case.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Good day, ToBeLoved

You said"It was so rare that 50 years ago no one ever heard of Calvinism. But people want to hear what makes them feel special, so of course their are preachers that will preach it."

So to prove that is historically inaccurate I just need a source more than 50 years old.

So as Baptist here you go... 1644 London Baptist confession of faith.

1644 london baptist confession of faith

In Him,

Bill

Well first of all, my point was not that Reformed theology did not exist at all, rather, my point was that people have been studying the Bible for 2,000 years and reformed theology has really only become “popular” in the last 50 years.

I listened to a John McArthur video and he talked about how when he (JM) got out of theology college that he was not Reformed theologian, nor did he know anyone who preached the Reformed point of view.

My point is that Reformed theology as an ‘organized’ theology was not mainstream at all.

Maybe I should have clarified what my point was.

 

[dad]

All you have to do is actually read the times the phrase is used. It’s obvious that you haven’t.

What phrase?

 

[dad]

Scripture?

For which section of the paragraph? There are many.

 

[dad]

It’s not that sin stuff that Christ went to the cross for. No, it’s choice.

The choice to be set free from that sin stuff.

 

[dad]

God doesn’t need to predestine anyone to hell. That’s what sinners deserve. The only way He might need to would be if we all started out neutral. But that’s not the case.

You seem to be saying that billions are born to hell and have no choice about the matter. Please confirm.