Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Well first of all, my point was not that Reformed theology did not exist at all, rather, my point was that people have been studying the Bible for 2,000 years and reformed theology has really only become “popular” in the last 50 years.

I listened to a John McArthur video and he talked about how when he (JM) got out of theology college that he was not Reformed theologian, nor did he know anyone who preached the Reformed point of view.

My point is that Reformed theology as an ‘organized’ theology was not mainstream at all.

Maybe I should have clarified what my point was.

And yet we have Calvin, Luther, Knox, Edwards, Spurgeon, Bunyan, Owens, Ryle, etc.

 

[Hammster]

What phrase?

If you can’t even remember what you said, then this all makes sense now.

 

[Hammster]

For which section of the paragraph? There are many.

Your choice.

 

[Hammster]

You seem to be saying that billions are born to hell and have no choice about the matter. Please confirm.

They can always chose to not sin.

 

[dad]

If you can’t even remember what you said, then this all makes sense now.

Thanks.

 

[dad]

Your choice.

Not sure where in the plethora of verses to start.

 

[dad]

They can always chose to not sin.

No. They can't. No more than they can choose not to breathe. They can choose to have Jesus in their life, and be forgiven though.

 

[Hammster]

Not sure where in the plethora of verses to start.

It shouldn’t be hard. The way you go on, it’s everywhere.

 

[Hammster]

No. They can't. No more than they can choose not to breathe. They can choose to have Jesus in their life, and be forgiven though.

Are you admitting that our nature has some sort of impact on our behavior and decisions?

 

[dad]

It shouldn’t be hard. The way you go on, it’s everywhere.

Here was the quote you cited

'Because He then also chooses us! If we choose Him, He chooses us. He chose before the world began to make a way for those who choose Him to be saved, despite a possible wrong decision by Adam.'

Wrong decision by Adam?
Ge 3:17 -And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Made a way for those who choose Him?

Joh 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Choose Him?

Ac 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

From the Greek, repent means this

1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

In other words, to choose!

etc etc

 

[dad]

Are you admitting that our nature has some sort of impact on our behavior and decisions?

No. We are asked to decide or repent by God and to choose Him. So that is not dependent on our nature, and in fact is the way we change that nature.

 

[Hammster]

Here was the quote you cited

'Because He then also chooses us! If we choose Him, He chooses us. He chose before the world began to make a way for those who choose Him to be saved, despite a possible wrong decision by Adam.'

Wrong decision by Adam?
Ge 3:17 -And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Made a way for those who choose Him?

Joh 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Choose Him?

Ac 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

From the Greek, repent means this

1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

In other words, to choose!

etc etc

None of that says He chooses us because we choose Him. I can’t even see how you can come to that conclusion.

 

[Hammster]

No. We are asked to decide or repent by God and to choose Him. So that is not dependent on our nature, and in fact is the way we change that nature.

If we can make good choices, why does our nature need changing? What’s wrong with it??

 

[ToBeLoved]

And yet we have Calvin, Luther, Knox, Edwards, Spurgeon, Bunyan, Owens, Ryle, etc.

Did you even read what I wrote?

I was talking mainstream. A theological movement.

I’m NOT saying their were not individuals.

 

[ToBeLoved]

None of that says He chooses us because we choose Him. I can’t even see how you can come to that conclusion.

There is some Biblical precedent to we love God because He loved us first.

1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If we can make good choices, why does our nature need changing? What’s wrong with it??

Evidently Jesus thinks a lot is wrong with it. He creates in us a new creation.

 

[dad]

None of that says He chooses us because we choose Him. I can’t even see how you can come to that conclusion.

To change one's mind means we decide. We choose. If you can't see that, you are missing the forest for the trees.

 

[dad]

If we can make good choices, why does our nature need changing? What’s wrong with it??

Doesn't matter what is good or bad about our nature, if God gave us the ability to choose, then we have it. Now with that ability we can accept His offer of eternal life by simply deciding we accept Jesus's gift to us. The choice is our way we can dump the old nature and accept His new life.

 

[Hammster]

Did you even read what I wrote?

I was talking mainstream. A theological movement.

I’m NOT saying their were not individuals.

They were well known for a reason. Their writings weren’t just discovered in the 60’s.

 

[Hammster]

There is some Biblical precedent to we love God because He loved us first.

1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Note that it doesn’t say that we can love because He first loved us. We do love because He first loved us. His love changed people.