Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

N
Nothing in scripture states the world nor they were perfect. The very fact there was a tempting serpent/satan and that forbidden fruit proves the world was far from perfect and that Adam and Eve sinned so easily also shows they were no more perfect than any of us.





I don't agree with that at all.




They knew it was forbidden but I don't believe they understood the consequences were as dire as loosing their chance at eternal life.




Or the concept of God being able to grant eternal life to mortals. Jesus isn't the tree of life in Rev 21-22 so I don't think he as the Word was symbolized as the tree of life.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Jesus gives permission for overcomers to eat from that tree so I see him more of an overseer of who is allowed to eat from it. Whether it is a literal tree and fruit I am unsure of.

The Creation story repeatedly has God saying creation "was Good". Note that is past tense. After, and only after He had made man that repeated claim changes. He said it was "Very Good". For me to look at that and suggest God could have done better than "Very Good" but for some reason chose not to defies logic to me. The whole point of those statements is a setup for what was about to happen to mankind, by the free choice of the first man.
To suggest that Very Good means it could have been better (not Perfect) begs the question of why God would make a creature, a creature made after (reflecting) His Image, a little lower than the angels - why would He not create the best possible place for that creature?
Why would God do less than He could?
So no, I agree with the Fathers who got this teaching from the Apostles, who got their teaching directly from God while following Him around about three years. Man fell, just like a few angels fell. And the Fall of Man was great - from being able to see God face to face ever day - to needing to hide from Him. I do not think we can downplay that aspect of the story as it creates the whole reason, the need for the rest of the story. A story which only comes about because Man fell so far that nothing we could do could ever restore us to where Adam and Eve were.

Don't get what is not being agreed to "at all". Am not sure how someone could claim sinning does not cloud our minds or harden our hearts. To suggest otherwise or to suggest that we have a superior position because we do sin than what Adam and Eve lost seems very backwards. The devil did not tempt and trick Eve so she would "gain" or learn something. He did that intentionally to corrupt their nature and cause the ensuing chaos that Adam's sin brought. By that single act of one man, the first man, death came for all of us - recall Saint Paul's words along that line. Which means before that act - not only did the corruption not exist in human nature but they were made to be sharing and were capable of sharing in God's Eternal happiness eternally. Am not sure how we can look at that and suggest things could have been better for Adam and Eve than that. How could we look at Satan and suggest he has gained something the angels in Heaven lack.

I could agree Satan and any human who has never sinned lacks the experience of sinning. But I cannot see that experience as one that illuminates our minds as the True Light would or knowing the True Light does. No sin would have to have the opposite effect of the Light on our minds because it represents the absence of Good. BTW am not saying we are totally depraved - but the Fall was great none the less.

We could ask why God allowed Satan to interfere in the place He made for mankind, but that is another question and not too different than asking why He allows suffering. But none the less, even the presence of Satan in the Garden does not mean God created evil.

What they knew or did not know was not the point of giving the Tree that title in the story. They were caretakers of the Garden. Which means they would necessarily have to observe death and the consequences of something dying. To suggest Eve's words in her initial defense of herself to Satan reflect the poor understanding of a child parroting mom's "don't go in the road" does not do the story justice in regards to the full picture. They were not mental children because they had never gone in the road, nor did their lack of that experience mean they failed to understand what death meant. These were responsible adults in their prime with a full and complete knowledge of right and wrong. We too know full well the consequences of our sin, yet we still do. So the idea that I or anyone needs to sin in order to "know" Good better should be rejected.

I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. Seems pretty clear to me. You asked me what I thought the Tree of Life represents, that is still my answer. And no, I do not think it is a literal plant form we call trees. What they lost the day they died, the instant Adam sinned, was the relationship they had before that with God - which included whatever access/gift/grace/power...etc. which He had provided to enable them to enjoy life eternally - which is to say share in His Eternal Happiness eternally.

I do find it interesting that as soon as one starts to pick at just a little piece of some teaching of the Church it is like trying to remove a card from a house of cards that is perfectly built with the fewest number of cards possible. To me it is a marvel how intricately the knowledge God has shared to us is woven together. Attempt to pick a single string out of that weave to discard it and the whole piece begins to unravel.

 

[Meowzltov]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

Evil is the absence of Good. By creating good, one creates evil as well.

 

[Meowzltov]

Ah...I don't.....I can't..

You don't sin?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Meowzltov]

Read the Acts of the Apostles and look for where they were handing out tracts and asking people to read. (hint - not there)

Note: Quality tracts. Not the stupid sort like Jack Chick.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Evil is the absence of Good. By creating good, one creates evil as well.

Not sure how that would work. We could certainly say Good, as Perfect Good, would certainly and necessarily be able to remove all absence of itself, but that is not an act of "creating" something but rather adding something that was previously missing. And by spreading Good, Light, we could certainly express the notion that comparatively we expose
The absence of something is not an existence. By "evil" we are expressing something that is not really there, like darkness is just a relative absence of Light. So by "making good" we are not creating the absence of it but making more of what should be.

And there is no reason to assume that the existence of Good or Light requires the existence of the absence of it. If all God's creatures which He made capable of doing "evil" did not make that choice then His Goodness, His Light would be everywhere rather than having things we do block it. He made this world that way originally, mankind corrupted it and He gave us hope that some of mankind and all of this world will one day be restored to the way it should be, the way He made it to be.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Note: Quality tracts. Not the stupid sort like Jack Chick.

You have found a verse where the Apostles are shown handing out "quality tracts". Do tell, please.

Joking aside, their commission was to go and teach then lead the flock. And it would be from that teaching, which came from God, that His Church has declared for nearly several millennium now that God did not create evil.

 

[ewq1938]

The proposal seems to be that there really was no "Fall of Man" and this was just a "learning" experience, one that they "needed" in order to mature.

I have read every post and no one has proposed that scenario.

The ignorance sin causes. The darkening of our minds and weakening of our will is caused by our "knowing" sin. Sinning did not free Adam and Eve, it made them and by them us, all slaves.

The problem is the sin they committed opened their eyes and gave them knowledge so that is the opposite of ignorance. Sins we commit today can do the same exact thing so I reject that sin gives us a lack of knowledge/ignorance. It gives us knowledge of wicked things and darkens our souls in a spiritual sense.

So if anyone wants to talk about our needing to experience sin -ok, but realize what we are saying.

No one "needs" to experience sinning.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have read every post and no one has proposed that scenario.




The problem is the sin they committed opened their eyes and gave them knowledge so that is the opposite of ignorance. Sins we commit today can do the same exact thing so I reject that sin gives us a lack of knowledge/ignorance. It gives us knowledge of wicked things and darkens our souls in a spiritual sense.





No one "needs" to experience sinning.

Post 359 reads

"They knew it was wrong, but they also were "young" and lacking experience in life and adversity so they were easy targets."

The implication being that they lacked something. What it is said they lacked - experience doing evil - while true, the way it is being portrayed we would have to assume it is seen as necessary in order for them to "mature" - have their "eyes open". You even gave a story suggesting as much about yourself, that you gained a better perspective of reality by sinning (another way of saying improve- be more perfected) and even compared Eve's being tricked to your friend "tricking" you. So I do not think I misunderstood either your personal story or this depiction of the "Fall" of man being viewed as an improvement, a step up, rather than an actual fall. Which is why I stated it differently to see if that was really the message that you intended.

Here it being denied that sinning is necessary, but clearly the suggestion in both your personal story and in what has been expressed about what Eve "lacked" the before/after state is not being seen as a Fall at all, but rather a benefit. Others in this thread have made similar suggestions, they needed to sin in order to appreciate Goodness better/more...etc..

The error is compounded in this last post by suggesting that by sinning (acting against what is Good) we benefit by improving our knowledge - being less or moving away from ignorance.

My point is merely stating what the people who gave us this Creation story and the Christians Fathers who came after them have all said about the Fall of Man. It was not a step up, it was not a necessary thing and they did not need to do that to appreciate God more. My goodness they were depicted waking every evening in the cooling of the day with God. That depiction was the relationship God made mankind to have Him, just like He made all the angels before some of them fell. There is no better indication of how intimate a relationship they had with God before the Fall. And it was (past tense) a relationship which stands in stark contrast to them hiding from God after the Fall.

Committing evil cannot be seen as "opening our eyes" or being needed in order for us to appreciate or love God more. Look at the angels, that large majority that never sinned and remain just the way God made them - in a Perfect Relationship with Him. Their eyes are open and have been open from the beginning - just as Adam and Eve's eyes were open. Satan eyes were open, but his sin has clouded his vision rather than improving it. So know I cannot agree sinning helps open our eyes to they way things should be.

 

[ewq1938]

The implication being that they lacked something. What it is said they lacked - experience doing evil - while true, the way it is being portrayed we would have to assume it is seen as necessary in order for them to "mature" - have their "eyes open".

Again, no one said such a thing. It is YOU imagining and adding these things into what you have read. In other words you infer that which was never implied.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Again, no one said such a thing. It is YOU imagining and adding these things into what you have read. In other words you infer that which was never implied.

When someone says they learned something like Eve learned something by sinning as a 5 year old, am unclear how my concluding that they see sinning as necessary for having their "eyes opened" is my imagining or adding to what was clearly stated. It is also exactly what your post #367 claims about what sinning did for Adam and Eve - committing sin was said to have
"opened their eyes and gave them knowledge" and that state they gained by sinning said to be the opposite of ignorance.

So are we now to believe somehow that you see gaining knowledge as inferior to being ignorant?

 

[ewq1938]

When someone says they learned something like Eve learned something by sinning as a 5 year old, am unclear how my concluding that they see sinning as necessary for having their "eyes opened" is my imagining or adding to what was clearly stated. It is also exactly what your post #367 claims about what sinning did for Adam and Eve - committing sin was said to have

You clearly missed the entire point of the story I told. I didn't "need" to experience sin. I was young and inexperienced in maturity and reasoning which allowed my better judgment to be manipulated by what sounded to be sound logic.

"opened their eyes and gave them knowledge" and that state they gained by sinning said to be the opposite of ignorance.

That is simply a fact as found in the Genesis account:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You clearly missed the entire point of the story I told. I didn't "need" to experience sin. I was young and inexperienced in maturity and reasoning which allowed my better judgment to be manipulated by what sounded to be sound logic.





That is simply a fact as found in the Genesis account:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Satan can quote Scripture. He also told them they would not really die the day they ate - but they did. Quoting Scripture is one thing. Explaining what it means is something else entirely - as Eve learned in listening to Satan. She quoted God. Satan told her it(His Word) did not really mean what she thought it means. Just like you said you believed your friend saying taking what does not belong to oneself is not always stealing. Both were lies.

You have yet to explain how seeing one's eyes opened and gaining knowledge are bad things or not something we need. Which is sort of required in the understanding given of what happened to you and how you likened it to what happened to Eve.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan can quote Scripture. He also told them they would not really die the day they ate - but they did. Quoting Scripture is one thing. Explaining what it means is something else entirely - as Eve learned in listening to Satan. She quoted God. Satan told her it(His Word) did not really mean what she thought it means. Just like you said you believed your friend saying taking what does not belong to oneself is not always stealing. Both were lies.

Of course.

You have yet to explain how seeing one's eyes opened and gaining knowledge are bad things or not something we need.

It's clear from the text that certain types of knowledge are bad. God punished Adam and Eve for a reason.

 

[2KnowHim]

You don't sin?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[2KnowHim]

According to Heb.5:14 It is and was necessary for our growth.

(CLV) Now solid nourishment is for the mature, who, because of habit, have faculties exercised for discriminating between the ideal and the evil."

(EWB-CB) But solid food belongeth to them that have reached maturity, even those who on account of its use have their senses trained for the discrimination of both good and evil.

(GNB) Solid food, on the other hand, is for adults, who through practice are able to distinguish between good and evil.

(KJV) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

(KJV+) ButG1161 strong meatG4731 G5160 belongethG2076 to them that are of full age,G5046 even those who by reason ofG1223 useG1838 haveG2192 their sensesG145 exercisedG1128 toG4314 discernG1253 bothG5037 goodG2570 andG2532 evil.G2556

(KJV-1611) But strong meate belongeth to them that are of full age, euen those who by reason of vse haue their senses exercised to discerne both good and euil.

(LITV) But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.

(MSG) solid food is for the mature, who have some practice in telling right from wrong.

(YLT) and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

A child loves their parents because of their Provision, Protection, what they can provide for them etc. But .....their Love is not Perfect until they grow, it is limited by what they Know. Only when the child becomes of full age, can they Know fully of what their Parents sacrificed to give them what they needed when they were in their care.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Of course.




It's clear from the text that certain types of knowledge are bad. God punished Adam and Eve for a reason.

Just to be sure

Am glad we agree on at least the lie part and that Scripture can be misunderstood. I agree they are punished for a reason.

To avoid being falsely accused again, want to be sure I have this correct. Is the position then that in this case ignorance and NOT having eyes open to evil is a good thing?

Where we might still disagree is the suggestion that sinning represents an improvement of themselves to a higher state/status than they deserved. After all, the verse was given two replies earlier suggesting the state one sees them "gaining" is the same as that of God ("as one of us"). I submit that verse is being misunderstood as well, as certainly nothing man could do would make them like God or even more like God. To imagine committing evil makes one more like God is definitely twisted.

So once again, "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil", cannot mean what is being suggested here. God does not commit evil and by committing evil a person does become more like God. So in what manner can a human committing evil be said to be "becoming like God". He made us to know, love and serve Good. That is what should be, what we aught to do. We do not have to do it, but we are suppose to. So when we sin, we have made our self a god in that we make ourselves our own arbitrator, rather than God, of what is "good" for us. Which is what the lie being told in the Garden suggested and also what Adam had to convince himself of before willing for himself what is "good".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I think what is being suggested is overstated because the same Apostle also said in the same letters:

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

"My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

A child loves their parents because of their Provision, Protection, what they can provide for them etc. But .....their Love is not Perfect until they grow, it is limited by what they Know. Only when the child becomes of full age, can they Know fully of what their Parents sacrificed to give them what they needed when they were in their care.

While all that sounds true, am not sure how to see it applying to what Adam did. He did not become more like God by sinning. Adam's experience opened his eyes only to the terrible reality of knowing the truth, (not knowing a lie) - that committing evil causes death. The knowledge gained was from the experience of deciding for himself what is "good" for him rather than trusting what he already knew to be true - that it was not actually good for him. There is no way to view gaining such experience as a good thing - as learning process that improves. It did the opposite - it destroyed. The only manner in which Adam "became" like God that instant in the Garden is in making himself the one, not God, that decides for himself what is "good".

 

[Meowzltov]

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You MUST reconcile these verses with this one:

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The truth is that we DO sin, and because of that, sometimes we ARE of the devil, sometimes we are NOT born of God, and need to repent once again. Acknowledging this is the ONLY way to reconcile both sets of verses.