Did God create evil?

[2KnowHim]

You MUST reconcile these verses with this one:
The truth is that we DO sin, and because of that, sometimes we ARE of the devil, sometimes we are NOT born of God, and need to repent once again. Acknowledging this is the ONLY way to reconcile both sets of verses.

I would never suggest that I have never sinned or was a sinner, for All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
But if I confess my sin to Him, He is faithful to forgive me, and to cleanse me from "All unrighteousness"...How many times can He cleanse us "of All" Unrighteousness?
I do not frustrate The Grace of God, I once knew sin, but now, no more. For He has done what He said He would do.
I do not have a double mind, to say I am a saint and a sinner.
I once was, but am no more because He has cleansed me.
How can he who has died to sin live any longer therein?

I think You, are the one who has to reconcile the verse, that says "he cannot sin for he is born of God".
To suggest that sometimes we are born of the devil and sometimes we are born of God is not biblical, much less logical and Especially Not Spiritual.

You cannot serve two masters......

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You MUST reconcile these verses with this one:

The truth is that we DO sin, and because of that, sometimes we ARE of the devil, sometimes we are NOT born of God, and need to repent once again. Acknowledging this is the ONLY way to reconcile both sets of verses.

I do and the ECFs have for two millennium and we all agree with you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I would never suggest that I have never sinned or was a sinner, for All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
But if I confess my sin to Him, He is faithful to forgive me, and to cleanse me from "All unrighteousness"...How many times can He cleanse us "of All" Unrighteousness?
I do not frustrate The Grace of God, I once knew sin, but now, no more. For He has done what He said He would do.
I do not have a double mind, to say I am a saint and a sinner.
I once was, but am no more because He has cleansed me.
How can he who has died to sin live any longer therein?

I think You, are the one who has to reconcile the verse, that says "he cannot sin for he is born of God".
To suggest that sometimes we are born of the devil and sometimes we are born of God is not biblical, much less logical and Especially Not Spiritual.

You cannot serve two masters......

Not serving two masters does not mean we are no longer free to mess up. And no, the understanding you gave of Saint John's letter is refuted by Saint John in the same letters talking to Christians about confessing their sins, there being different level of sins and about "mortal sins".
You are correct we cannot serve both, which is why when we do sin we need to ask forgiveness, which is why Saint John emphasized confession. Saint Peter committed, according to God's own Words to him the worst sin possible for a "follower" of Christ, IOW a mortal sin. Yet Jesus clearly forgave Saint Peter. We do not see a record of Saint Peter's confession to Jesus, but we know from the change of his demeanor in later conversation with our Risen Lord God that the relationship totally broken that night had been restored. We know that restoration could not have happened absent a reconciliation between the two over what Saint Peter had done.

So yes, our Baptism can and does wash away all prior sins. But it does not totally heal our fallen nature. To survive and retain our relationship we need a continual infusion of His Grace. And yes, sin works against that - so we sear our conscience, fog our mind and muddy our souls again by sinning, even to the point of mortality (total death of that relationship - as in "I will deny you before God").
I do not see an attempt here to reconcile your opposing view with Saint Johns admonishment to Christians in the same letters to confess their sins and be especially concerned about mortal sins.

 

[Meowzltov]

But if I confess my sin to Him, He is faithful to forgive me, and to cleanse me from "All unrighteousness"...How many times can He cleanse us "of All" Unrighteousness?

Absolutely! 70 time 7.

I do not frustrate The Grace of God, I once knew sin, but now, no more. For He has done what He said He would do.

That's simply not true. We all still sin. We covet. We lie. We lust. Etc.

I do not have a double mind, to say I am a saint and a sinner.
I once was, but am no more because He has cleansed me.

We vacillate back and forth, now serving the spirit, now serving the carnal self. God does not forgive us of future sins. Each time we sin, we must go to him once more, confess, and repent, and ask for grace. The whole idea that he forgives us for future sins is a doctrine of men; it is not in scripture. He cleanses us of all unrighteousness that WE HAVE, not that we don't have yet.

 

[ewq1938]

To avoid being falsely accused again, want to be sure I have this correct. Is the position then that in this case ignorance and NOT having eyes open to evil is a good thing?

That's too broad. It was wrong for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and have knowledge of good and evil. We know that because God forbade them from it.

Where we might still disagree is the suggestion that sinning represents an improvement of themselves to a higher state/status than they deserved.

I wouldn't say it was a higher state but a state that they were not mature enough to experience. It's like teaching a 12 y/o how to build a bomb. They aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions regarding such knowledge.

After all, the verse was given two replies earlier suggesting the state one sees them "gaining" is the same as that of God ("as one of us"). I submit that verse is being misunderstood as well, as certainly nothing man could do would make them like God or even more like God. To imagine committing evil makes one more like God is definitely twisted.

It made them like God in a certain, very narrow sense only and since God confirmed it happened it is true but needs to be properly understood in it's limitations.

So once again, "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil", cannot mean what is being suggested here.

It means exactly what is said. Adam and Eve knew good and evil. God also knew good and evil. It didn't make them gods, or raise their status or anything.

God does not commit evil and by committing evil a person does become more like God. So in what manner can a human committing evil be said to be "becoming like God". He made us to know, love and serve Good. That is what should be, what we aught to do. We do not have to do it, but we are suppose to.

We have been down this road and I see no reason to do it again.

So when we sin, we have made our self a god in that we make ourselves our own arbitrator, rather than God, of what is "good" for us.

No, you fully misunderstand what it means when God said they had become like us in knowing good and evil. They simply shared in some knowledge God knew. Thinking any of this is making one's self a god is not related to any of this.

Which is what the lie being told in the Garden suggested and also what Adam had to convince himself of before willing for himself what is "good".

No lie was told. The truth was told.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That's too broad. It was wrong for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and have knowledge of good and evil. We know that because God forbade them from it.


I wouldn't say it was a higher state but a state that they were not mature enough to experience. It's like teaching a 12 y/o how to build a bomb. They aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions regarding such knowledge.

And we cannot say that and think we mean the same thing as a parent telling a child not to cross a road. They were told one thing they could not do and what would happen to them if they did. Again, that they are shown hiding from God as opposed to be able to walk with Him in the Garden indicates the great divide Adam created by his actions. We are talking about God after and a creation He said was Very Good and was depicted as being in a perfect relationship with Him rather than a relationship of ignorance or lacking in any way

It made them like God in a certain, very narrow sense only and since God confirmed it happened it is true but needs to be properly understood in it's limitations.

It means exactly what is said. Adam and Eve knew good and evil. God also knew good and evil. It didn't make them gods, or raise their status or anything.

God's Word confirms something indeed. That it confirms what you think it confirms has not been demonstrated, nor would it make any sense to suggest that a creature needs to sin in order to be more God like. That is if one actually believes God is Good.

We have been down this road and I see no reason to do it again.

You just made the claim that by sinning they became more God like based solely on your understanding of what God's Word says. My objection is supported by 2 millennium worth of Christians way smarter refuting that understanding of that verse. And regardless of how many times we go down the road, it still has no been explained how it could be said that creature needs to sin in order to become more God like.

No, you fully misunderstand what it means when God said they had become like us in knowing good and evil. They simply shared in some knowledge God knew. Thinking any of this is making one's self a god is not related to any of this.

My goodness the whole point of the statement is about what they had just done. Which is sinning. How can we possibly suggest the verse is not talking about what they had just done?
And since the odd claim was made that it was not sinning that made them "become as one of us" what was it?

No lie was told. The truth was told.

Ok, that is odd. So Satan did not tell a lie and so the fruit was really good for them just like he said and God only told them not to cross the road because He did not want them to be an adult. Got it.

 

[ewq1938]

You just made the claim that by sinning they became more God like based solely on your understanding of what God's Word says.

God is the one that confirmed it.

My objection is supported by 2 millennium worth of Christians way smarter refuting that understanding of that verse.

Any disagreement with what God said would result in error.

And regardless of how many times we go down the road, it still has no been explained how it could be said that creature needs to sin in order to become more God like.

You are showing that you still don't understand what the result of their sin was. They were not "God like". There are important things being left out of that overly broad statement. I've already explained it yet it hasn't been understood.

My goodness the whole point of the statement is about what they had just done. Which is sinning. How can we possibly suggest the verse is not talking about what they had just done?
And since the odd claim was made that it was not sinning that made them "become as one of us" what was it?

It was certainly the sin yet you still leave out the critical part. You are focused on the wrong thing.

Ok, that is odd. So Satan did not tell a lie and so the fruit was really good for them

He didn't say it was good for them.

 

[ISTANDBYJESUS]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

2 Corinthians 4:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[DrBubbaLove]

2 Corinthians 4:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Jas 1:13-14 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

Also we could not have Christians arguing with atheist about whether the existence of evils proves God does NOT exist if it were even logically possible for the Christian to claim God creates evil. The whole reason we have people talking about the "problem" of evil/suffering is because God is Good and there is evil. If were as simple as saying well of course there is evil because God does it (creates it) then that whole discussion is a non-starter. IOW we cannot say God is Good and God creates evil.

BTW if one reads some of the great writer out of Africa, Saint Augustine, the reason we can say God creates everything but does not create evil was explained. nearly two millennium ago

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God is the one that confirmed it.



Any disagreement with what God said would result in error.



You are showing that you still don't understand what the result of their sin was. They were not "God like". There are important things being left out of that overly broad statement. I've already explained it yet it hasn't been understood.




It was certainly the sin yet you still leave out the critical part. You are focused on the wrong thing.







He didn't say it was good for them.

That God has confirmed it is an opinion and a very modern one at that. Claiming that one's position cannot be disagreed with because "God said it" does not change the fact that it is still a modern opinion that God said that. The position has no merit absence proof/authority that that opinion is actually what God said. Claiming, well it literally says that does not help either. Scripture also literally suggests God is like Big Bird but I do not need to take that verse and claim it must be so that God looks like some Sesame Street character (Matt 23).

One cannot claim on the one hand that they had made a move towards becoming more God like - and that being your understanding for why they had to be removed from having access to eternal life - yet also maintain that they did not really become more God like. You have not explained anything. You have muddled your position by wanting your cake and eating too.

"He did not say it was good for them" I see. So now you are suggesting it would not be good for a creature to be more god like - which was the lie Satan told - specifically in this case to do something that make one more like Good. Do tell please how doing something that would make one more like Good is not good. This should be interesting.

 

[ewq1938]

That God has confirmed it is an opinion and a very modern one at that.

It is not modern nor is it opinion. God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Opinion is not part of this fact stated by God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

"For when God said, Let there be light, and there was light, if we are justified in understanding in this light the creation of the angels, then certainly they were created partakers of the eternal light which is the unchangeable Wisdom of God, by which all things were made, and whom we call the only-begotten Son of God; so that they, being illumined by the Light that created them, might themselves become light and be called Day, in participation of that unchangeable Light and Day which is the Word of God, by whom both themselves and all else were made. The true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world, John 1:9 — this Light lights also every pure angel, that he may be light not in himself, but in God; from whom if an angel turn away, he becomes impure, as are all those who are called unclean spirits, and are no longer light in the Lord, but darkness in themselves, being deprived of the participation of Light eternal. For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name evil."
City of God. Book XI Chap 9
http://newadvent.org/fathers/120111.htm

"And what more monstrous than to assert that those things which have lost all their goodness are made better? Therefore, if they shall be deprived of all good, they shall no longer be. So long, therefore, as they are, they are good; therefore whatsoever is, is good. That evil, then, which I sought whence it was, is not any substance; for were it a substance, it would be good. For either it would be an incorruptible substance, and so a chief good, or a corruptible substance, which unless it weregood it could not be corrupted. I perceived, therefore, and it was made clear to me, that Thou made all things good, nor is there any substance at all that was not made by You; and because all that You have made are not equal, therefore all things are; because individually they are good, and altogether very good, because our God made all things very good."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/110107.htm

"And I inquired what iniquity was, and ascertained it not to be a substance, but a perversion of the will, bent aside from You, O God, the Supreme Substance, towards these lower things, and casting out its bowels, and swelling outwardly."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/110107.htm

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It is not modern nor is it opinion. God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Opinion is not part of this fact stated by God.

That is evasive and intentionally so. What is opinion and very modern one of man is the claim that a literal reading of Scripture in this case is to understood as meaning one particular thing. That opinion would be no more valid than a claim that because Psalmist literally says so that God looks like Big Bird. In both cases it makes no sense to suggest it means what it literally says. Nothing becomes more like Good by doing the opposite of Good. And God does not look like a Sesame Street Character. So simply stating it appears the Bible says so doesn't cut it, at least not in those two cases.

While we note the reply is intentionally evasive it should also be noted the point is not addressed. If one is going to claim that by sinning man became more god like, then one is going to have to explain why sinning is bad or how one sees God as evil. The reference to "know good and evil" can only refer to the act (the first sin of man) which led to God "making" that statement. So please avoid further evasion and stop the denial that one just claimed again that by sinning man had become more god like.

 

[ewq1938]

That is evasive and intentionally so.

No, its scripture quoting God himself which you cannot dispute so you go after me instead. I tire of your constant red herring avoidances.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No, its scripture quoting God himself which you cannot dispute so you go after me instead. I tire of your constant red herring avoidances.

LOL, am not sure "red herring avoidances" is even understood - let alone the implications of what one claims the Bible literally saying something means.

Am not attempting to distract anyone. I simply pointing out that one has claimed the Bible literally says Adam sinning made him more like Good. I cannot help the fact that makes no sense. That is not distracting, except perhaps for someone that for whatever reason wants in blind faith to believe the Bible literally says that.

I suspect a punt is coming.

 

[ewq1938]

I cannot help the fact that makes no sense.

Apparently you cannot help but to disagree with what God said. We are done here.

God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

I believe that, you do not.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Apparently you cannot help but to disagree with what God said. We are done here.

God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

I believe that, you do not.

And there is the punt.

More blatant evasion of the point. No one is denying the Bible does not literally say that. Note also I did not deny the Bible literally says God is like Big Bird. What I deny is that doing evil makes one more like Good and I deny that God looks like Big Bird.

That one does not want to talk about why it makes no sense to claim that the Bible should be understood as saying doing evil makes one more like Good, no one will ever understand. At least not now that the only person present boldly making such a claim has left the game.

 

[2KnowHim]

I do not see an attempt here to reconcile your opposing view with Saint Johns admonishment to Christians in the same letters to confess their sins and be especially concerned about mortal sins.

That doesn't surprise me in the least. Although I did.

 

[2KnowHim]

Absolutely! 70 time 7.

I don't think you know what you are quoting here. First of all this was before the Cross and concerning Israel, the number being 490 ...."yrs." that Israel was without The Word from The Lord through The Prophets. Secondly....He was speaking of God turning his face against Israel till His Son Came.

That's simply not true. We all still sin. We covet. We lie. We lust. Etc.

Speak for yourself, Is Christ the minister of Sin? Sin is a transgression of the law, or anything that is not of faith is sin.
Sin dwells in the flesh, but if we have been crucified with Christ we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit.
For do you not know, that he that is baptized into Christ was baptized into His Death?

The wages of sin is Death, did not Christ pay for that in full with His own life? Or is His death in vain for you?
For Christ "condemned" sin in the flesh, He nailed it to the cross. So we who have died with Him should no longer live in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in you, if He doesn't then you are none of His.

We vacillate back and forth, now serving the spirit, now serving the carnal self. God does not forgive us of future sins. Each time we sin, we must go to him once more, confess, and repent, and ask for grace. The whole idea that he forgives us for future sins is a doctrine of men; it is not in scripture. He cleanses us of all unrighteousness that WE HAVE, not that we don't have yet.

So tell me, how many times have you crucified The Son of God a fresh then by repenting, and put Him to an open shame?
How many times, have you not believed that His Sacrifice Once for All was enough for you? Ever time you come back to Him in Repentance that's how many times you have, according to scripture that is. Heb.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Continuing in Repentance towards dead works in not by faith.

 

[2KnowHim]

Scripture also literally suggests God is like Big Bird but I do not need to take that verse and claim it must be so that God looks like some Sesame Street character (Matt 23).

If you understand any scripture to depict God as "Big Bird", then you most definitely should not read scripture.
And you have no understanding what wings means, or under the shadow of the Almighty means.

We have tried to discuss scripture with you, and you out right deny what they say, and quote from your "Fathers" which most of us don't' read because we are warned in the ch. you just posted, Mat. 23 Not to call any man on earth father and have not many teachers either. You are a living example of why He said that.