Did God create evil?

[2KnowHim]

So now the suggestion is that besides being not of full mental age, the suggestion appears to be that God had nothing to do with "outcome", He just let it happen to them.

Where do you get that from what I said. God has everything to do with Everything. He is the one who set things up in the Garden, place Adam there, and the serpent and the tree, and then gave the command not to eat . So I'd say He has everything to do with it. But unlike You, I don't see it as a bad thing, I see it as a necessary part of God's plan.
For Everything He does has purpose and is Good.

God was the One Adam offended by his sin,

What makes you think God was offended by what Adam did, especially knowing he would do it ?

 

[2KnowHim]

A person Scripture would know that no where in it does it say pick me up and read me yourself and you will understand. In fact it very plainly says the very opposite - that we need someone to explain it to us.

On the contrary .....
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Then why do we still sin?

Ah...I don't.....I can't..

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. I truly do Love you in The Lord, but my heart breaks for you because you cannot see these things, mainly because you've been taught that you can't without man to teach you, but who is telling you these things? Man.

God is not a man that He should lie, in fact it says let every man be a liar and God be true.
Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Where do you get that from what I said. God has everything to do with Everything. He is the one who set things up in the Garden, place Adam there, and the serpent and the tree, and then gave the command not to eat . So I'd say He has everything to do with it. But unlike You, I don't see it as a bad thing, I see it as a necessary part of God's plan.
For Everything He does has purpose and is Good.


What makes you think God was offended by what Adam did, especially knowing he would do it ?

Because God is Good. If however one believes God creates the opposite of what most of say He is, then I could understand why one would see evil and suffering as not bad things. And back to topic, believing that would mean God is NOT Good.

Speaking of good/bad - I do not recall saying punishment is bad - at least not in a moral sense of bad/good. That God is Just is what makes punishment a NECESSARY part of God's plan. Which if one was going to claim Adam and Eve are not "fully mature mentally" then it is a little hard to understand God punishing them for something one claims they did not understand.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

On the contrary .....
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Ah...I don't.....I can't..

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Anybody can twist Sacred Scripture to make whatever point they want. The understanding suggested conflicts with what the same writer in the SAME letters says about listening to teaching- Read the first Chapter of the letter just quoted above and count how many times he used words like "declare" and "heard". Last I "heard" such things require a person teaching (declaring) to have someone to listen to. Read the Acts of the Apostles and look for where they were handing out tracts and asking people to read. (hint - not there)

For that matter read the last verse of that same Chapter before declaring to everyone that one no longer sins and is incapable of doing so. Then do a search in the NT on the word confess and note who is being told to confess in many of those instances.(hint - they are Christians)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. I truly do Love you in The Lord, but my heart breaks for you because you cannot see these things, mainly because you've been taught that you can't without man to teach you, but who is telling you these things? Man.

God is not a man that He should lie, in fact it says let every man be a liar and God be true.
Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Come again?
Act 8:31
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I went back and re-read prior posts and realized I over reacted a bit. Constantly getting personal attacks on my faith and against the Church here wears me down sometimes and in the wrong mood or time I can say something I regret - this was one of those times. So I am rewriting this history here.

The person who thinks they cannot sin is setting themselves up just like Saint Peter did that night and Christ knew it. On the day when such a person realizes they have sinned, just as Saint Peter did that morning when the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed that third time, the fall such a person has set themselves up for is great and the resulting despair awful. On that day such a person will sorely need our pity and our prayers.

Yes, we are called to a high standard, and yes I believe we can right now be Holy as He is Holy, just like He said. It is a supernatural gift of Love that helps us attain that state (Grace). I also believe most of us don't stay that way very long. God knows we are still weak. And His Love includes giving us a way to pick ourselves up, apologize and return to His Good Grace again.

 

[2KnowHim]

Wow.......

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Saint Peter actually had a much stronger response, but still prideful.

 

[ewq1938]

So you see the results of what Adam did (Death) as punishment from God for disobeying Him? I knew you were confused I just didn't know how bad until now, no wonder you see God as a tormenting God.
God told Adam the outcome of his disobedience, and what would take place if he was to eat and after. God didn't do it to him, He wasn't punishing Adam and Eve, He was simply telling them the outcome of it all.
And just because Eve quoted something that God had said, doesn't mean she understood what He meant. Just like many today.

Actually physical death had nothing to do with the sin committed., Neither as a punishment nor a result of it. They were created just as mortal as any humans are, naturally designed to eventually die and return to the dust of the Earth. The death they both died the day they sinned was a figurative death, often called a spiritual death. Those that are unsaved are also dead in the same way.

 

[ewq1938]

We agree she was tricked, but to be tricked in this case means she first had to KNOW it was wrong

She was not "tricked" she was deceived. She knew it was wrong at first but the deception would have changed that.

but - which was the point I was trying to make against those saying things like they were not "fully mentally mature" enough to know better.

Immaturity was definitely a part in all of this. Maturity can help avoid deception by being wise enough to spot deception when you see it.

Which means she KNEW it was wrong before he tricked her - otherwise there would be no need for him to attempt to twist a wrong into a perceived right.

When I was 5 years old I had a lot of neighborhood friends that I played with. One kid had wealthy parents because he had the most toys. One day I was playing with a different friend and we walked by the other kids house and we saw a lot of toys laying about the yard. Perhaps he was napping and planned to return outside to play later. Anyways, I knew it was wrong to steal but my friend deceived me by saying this other kid had plenty of toys and it wouldn't matter if one disappeared. I stole the toy thinking it wasn't really wrong and never got in trouble for it yet never forgot what happened and have learned from it. I think of Eve's situation in a similar sense.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

She was not "tricked" she was deceived. She knew it was wrong at first but the deception would have changed that.



Immaturity was definitely a part in all of this. Maturity can help avoid deception by being wise enough to spot deception when you see it.




When I was 5 years old I had a lot of neighborhood friends that I played with. One kid had wealthy parents because he had the most toys. One day I was playing with a different friend and we walked by the other kids house and we saw a lot of toys laying about the yard. Perhaps he was napping and planned to return outside to play later. Anyways, I knew it was wrong to steal but my friend deceived me by saying this other kid had plenty of toys and it wouldn't matter if one disappeared. I stole the toy thinking it wasn't really wrong and never got in trouble for it yet never forgot what happened and have learned from it. I think of Eve's situation in a similar sense.

Tricked, deceived....am not sure why we need the distinction. Bottom line she is less culpable for what she did than Adam, which is why through history he has been the one said to be responsible for "the Fall". I cannot agree that they were ignorant, which is based solely on the title of the Tree from which they ate. BTW if the story is actually followed that Tree was Good (as was everything else before "the Fall').

We all sin because we convince ourselves in our mind to think and/or then do something we know to be wrong and we justify it to ourselves by convincing our self it is actually a "good" for us. This is what I meant and what the ancients talked about as a "perceived" good - which is opposed to what is "actually good". God is All Good, and so the Standard against which all else can be measured. He made us to know, love and serve Good (Him) so that means we KNOW in our hearts what is right and what is wrong.

When we twist that knowledge in our head to make something we know to be wrong (like Eve knew the fruit was wrong for her to eat) and make it something we instead see as "good" for us - that is when we sin. Satan put that thought in Eve's head - that the fruit was actually something to be desired and actually good when they both knew it was not good.

 

[ewq1938]

I cannot agree that they were ignorant, which is based solely on the title of the Tree from which they ate.

No one says they were ignorant. They knew it was wrong, Eve was deceived, and Adam was not.

BTW if the story is actually followed that Tree was Good (as was everything else before "the Fall').

No, that's wrong.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No one says they were ignorant. They knew it was wrong, Eve was deceived, and Adam was not.



No, that's wrong.

not fully mentally mature - sounds a bit ignorant to me - and certainly not someone that an earthly judge much less the Judge, would hold accountable the way God did Adam.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

That seems clear to me. Did God not make the Tree in question?

 

[ewq1938]

not fully mentally mature - sounds a bit ignorant to me

That's not what ignorant means.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

That seems clear to me. Did God not make the Tree in question?

No. The tree is symbolic of something which is an act which after doing results in knowledge God didn't intend Adam and Eve to have, at least at that time, perhaps ever...I only know it was forbidden to them but they did it anyways and reaped the results.

What do you think the tree of life represents?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That's not what ignorant means.




No. The tree is symbolic of something which is an act which after doing results in knowledge God didn't intend Adam and Eve to have, at least at that time, perhaps ever...I only know it was forbidden to them but they did it anyways and reaped the results.

What do you think the tree of life represents?

I dunno, suggesting Adam and Eve were too immature mental age wise to understand the difference between right and wrong was what I understood the suggestion to be. In fact it was stated that they "lacked" the knowledge which supposedly the act of defying God gave them.

ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated:

If anything and because of their perfection and the perfection of the world in which God had placed them, Adam and Eve before the Fall understood good and evil far better than we do - just like the angels and that includes Satan before his fall. In that state they all had a perfect relationship with Good, which means they would have a perfect understanding of what is right and what is wrong, which means the fully understood the necessity of obeying His Word. So do not eat to them was much more than telling a child to stay out of the road.

What God wanted for all the sentient creatures He made (angels and mankind is all that has been revealed to us) is to know, love and serve Good. The world we live in now is not the world God put Adam and Eve into. Just like the "place" Satan is now is not the "place" He originally put all the angels into. We cannot view God has doing something half-$ss, so the state and place He put Adam and Eve were perfection, which means the place they "fell to" was much greater than what some here imagine. It also means we are now far more ignorant of good and evil than they were originally - because the corruption Adam's Fall gave our nature clouds are minds.

We agree whatever the tree or act really was, it was forbidden. We should also agree that they fully understood the consequences of doing it anyway and still did it. That is what sin is. And that process we see Eve go through is the same process we go through in our minds when we think on something we know is wrong to think about, convince ourselves it would be "good" for us to think about it - so we took a wrong and declare it right in our mind. That sin in our mind and the desire of whatever the object of that thought is typically proceeds actually doing it. Our Lord God walking here as a man declared those thoughts just as evil as the act.

I like the view expressed by many ancients that the Tree of Life represents the Son of God.

 

[2KnowHim]

The Tree of Life and The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil are both the same tree...IMU.
It is none other than The Word of God. The Law and The Spirit, The Letter which kills and The Spirit which giveth Life.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Pro_3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
Pro_11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.
Pro_13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
Pro_15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The Word of God/Jesus The Christ

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: (so was Adam) but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (so did Adam)
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (so did Adam)
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (so did it Adam)
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (so was Adam)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Actually physical death had nothing to do with the sin committed., Neither as a punishment nor a result of it. They were created just as mortal as any humans are, naturally designed to eventually die and return to the dust of the Earth. The death they both died the day they sinned was a figurative death, often called a spiritual death. Those that are unsaved are also dead in the same way.

What sense would it make for God to create creatures to share in His Eternal Happiness if the ability to live eternally in that Happiness was not made a part of that existence?

Not necessarily a part of their nature itself at least not for humans - unlike angels/spirits. This ability could simply have been proximity/access to that Tree of Life that enabled their bodies to maintain eternally (our spirits are eternal already), at least while they had access. It was still something God had given mankind, which we could only conclude He intended mankind to make use of that since He put them there with that Gift. But since mankind, specifically Adam, had a choice and he chose badly - God had to then act to remove that access/proximity formerly granted Adam. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have been eternally left in the shameful embarrassing state they put themselves into. There would also be nothing they could do to restore themselves to the former perfect relationship with God and with their members (body and soul), which means it would take a supernatural act to make that happen - which fortunately for us God had one such act in Mind.

 

[ewq1938]

I dunno, suggesting Adam and Eve were too immature mental age wise to understand the difference between right and wrong was what I understood the suggestion to be.

No, they would have known it was wrong to disobey God but as I showed in my personal story, immaturity can be affected by clever words or seemingly sound logic.

In fact it was stated that they "lacked" the knowledge which supposedly the act of defying God gave them.

ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated:

This wasn't proposed by me. They knew it was wrong, but they also were "young" and lacking experience in life and adversity so they were easy targets. Satan targeted Eve, then Eve got Adam to sin.

If anything and because of their perfection and the perfection of the world in which God had placed them, Adam and Eve before the Fall understood good and evil far better than we do

Nothing in scripture states the world nor they were perfect. The very fact there was a tempting serpent/satan and that forbidden fruit proves the world was far from perfect and that Adam and Eve sinned so easily also shows they were no more perfect than any of us.

It also means we are now far more ignorant of good and evil than they were originally - because the corruption Adam's Fall gave our nature clouds are minds.

I don't agree with that at all.

We agree whatever the tree or act really was, it was forbidden. We should also agree that they fully understood the consequences of doing it anyway and still did it.

They knew it was forbidden but I don't believe they understood the consequences were as dire as loosing their chance at eternal life.

I like the view expressed by many ancients that the Tree of Life represents the Son of God.

Or the concept of God being able to grant eternal life to mortals. Jesus isn't the tree of life in Rev 21-22 so I don't think he as the Word was symbolized as the tree of life.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Jesus gives permission for overcomers to eat from that tree so I see him more of an overseer of who is allowed to eat from it. Whether it is a literal tree and fruit I am unsure of.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No, they would have known it was wrong to disobey God but as I showed in my personal story, immaturity can be affected by clever words or seemingly sound logic.




This wasn't proposed by me. They knew it was wrong, but they also were "young" and lacking experience in life and adversity so they were easy targets. Satan targeted Eve, then Eve got Adam to sin.
.

This is a open discussion and there are others involved. I attempt, not always successfully, to direct comments at no one specific but rather the points of the conversation. Tends to keep me out of trouble with the Mods. Sorry if I muddled my response to a specific point of yours.

The proposal seems to be that there really was no "Fall of Man" and this was just a "learning" experience, one that they "needed" in order to mature. I think the story does not depict this and the understanding of the Fathers reflects a very different experience. The story depicts a fall, a very great fall of man - not a step in the right direction.

There are angels today who have never sinned. Jesus never sinned. Tradition has it that Mary, the Mother of God never sinned. Others in the Bible because of what occurs before what would have otherwise been a natural death, we would have to at least suggest at some point stopped sinning. Adam and Eve did not sin until that instant depicted in Genesis. So, No. I cannot look at all these examples and suggest their lives, their existence are lacking in ANY aspect compared to ourselves because they have not sinned. It is we who are lacking the full understanding, the perfect relationship with and reflection of the One Who made them all and us. And it is sin that holds us back from that, from our births.

Again, if anyone is truly ignorant compared to the way Adam and Eve were originally made, it is us. And it is us because we have experienced sin. The ignorance sin causes. The darkening of our minds and weakening of our will is caused by our "knowing" sin. Sinning did not free Adam and Eve, it made them and by them us, all slaves.

So if anyone wants to talk about our needing to experience sin -ok, but realize what we are saying. Knowing evil in the sense we are talking about does nothing Good for us. It clouds are thinking. We do not lust for woman outside our marriage in order to appreciate our wife more. No. We lust in our hearts because sin has corrupted our nature. And that corrupted nature was not the way God made Adam and Eve. They are shown going from an intimate personal relationship with God to hiding from Him. Are we really going to suggest that this later state of their relationship represents an improvement?
How about Satan's present state and those who followed his lead - that an improvement too?