Did God create evil?

[ewq1938]

is always a sin and represents evil (Darkness)

And guess who says they create that? Yep, God.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Then your theory falls apart like a two dollar suit case. God is the Creator of all things. If He is not the origin of all things including evil, and sin, then we have another creator. And that presents a whole other problem.

But, I also see Him paying the price for all things evil, when He gave us His Son.
The wages of sin is Death, and He paid that price through Jesus Christ, when He took on the sin of The world.

That would be only be true if those two option were the only possibilities. Yeah we could imagine and some indeed have, that something else existing "before creation" that created evil - an evil god perhaps. But that notion creates a different set of logical problems and is itself not the only other possible explanation for the existence of evil - which for the orthodox Christian world has NEVER layed with God - but on creature He made to love Him which He also made free to choose to do that or not (sin) - so while we could say God created a situation where evil is certainly possible (not a necessity) it was only those creatures choosing to first sin that made evil a part of our reality - and we continue to sin (creating more evil/darkness).

 

[LovelyGiselle]

God did not create evil. Evil was born from rebellion against God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Let me put it another way......are you the exception of not ever having rebelled or defied God?

Yes, that is exactly what was said - man, specifically Adam first - brought evil into the world along with the angels who rebeled. Angels were also given the same freedom. As far as I know all the posters here are human, so it would be both silly and also mean spirited to suggest a poster is excluding themselves from "mankind" when saying mankind sinned.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And guess who says they create that? Yep, God.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Again only if insist upon discerning that meaning from those verses. So one can only say "Yep, God said it" if that were truly how the verse was meant to be understood.

Also discerning that verse that way overstates any sense of our reality concerning existence and what that means to us. Light is real, has properties we can see and observe. Darkness on the other hand is not real, but rather our simply our expression of the relative absence of something else - Light. Light itself can no more "create" darkness than the dark can light (which is sort of why a house divided or a God that creates evil or a "devil" that does Good are all illogical thoughts). Light can certainly drive out the darkness and also reveal it - by revealing not darkness itself but what is creating it (something blocking the light - which is what we are doing when we sin - creating darkness).

 

[ewq1938]

Again only if insist upon discerning that meaning from those verses. So one can only say "Yep, God said it" if that were truly how the verse was meant to be understood.

There is only one way it can be understood, the way it's written. You are re-writing it to suit your own version of God by ignoring that Ra is written in the masculine form. I have facts, you have opinions which ignore the facts. I see no reason why I should continue to correct your error on this since you refuse to accept it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

God made Adam and Eve like him in every way . and then they conceived the idea of good and evil, Adam created evil, God gave Adam the capacity to do it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There is only one way it can be understood, the way it's written. You are re-writing it to suit your own version of God by ignoring that Ra is written in the masculine form. I have facts, you have opinions which ignore the facts. I see no reason why I should continue to correct your error on this since you refuse to accept it.

It is indeed a fact that some English translations render the verse "creates evil". No one is ignoring that fact in this thread or arguing about the various linguistic methodology to justify that English rendering. Some, including myself suggest it is not the best rendering, which is rather obvious when posters like the one above use it to support a distorted view of God and what it would mean to say God is Good.

We are not even ignoring or denying that one could look at that verse as it is rendered ("creates evil") and blindly conclude as the above poster does that God does evil. What is obviously being ignored in this thread however, is that God is Good and we can view "creates evil" in a way that does not violate the truth that God is Good. The same way the ECFs viewed that verse thousands of years ago and the same way the Jews who gave us this verse viewed it - as opposed to the abhorrent view which can only be understood as saying God is NOT Good (meaning not All Good - not Perfect).

If however we start as the above poster repeatedly and in blind faith does with the assumption that "creates evil" can ONLY be understood as saying God's Will directs His Mind towards anything besides Good - then we cannot attempt to ignore that that blind faith in that understanding of that verse means God is NOT Good - or at least not All Good. Which was Plato's point that the same poster summarily dismissed; that when we imagine a benevolent deity, we cannot hold that thought while also imagining that deity committing evil. It is one or the other, not both.

So one has to decide what is more previous to oneself I guess. The blind faith that the Bible declares to oneself that God is not absolutely Good or that God is Good. Ideally our Faith, which is a gift from God itself, should give us the clear picture that God is Good. So we cannot let a blind faith that we have adopted for ourselves on any matter (as the poster above does in their understanding of this verse's declaration to them) allow ANY doubt in our minds that God is Good.

So if we are going to allow a blind faith to declare something true - then at least have the honesty with oneself and everyone else to admit that blind faith in the declared opinion (opinion because it is not true that God create evil), means what it means - God is not All Good. Dropping that blind faith would not mean in this case that the Bible is in error, but that one's understanding gained from it was in error.

One could also be honest is attempting to defend that blind faith by not pretending that others are attacking the grammar of the verse or English rendering, by addressing instead the attack they are making on what that blind faith expression means - which God is not All Good. It is not enough to just say - well that is what it says so it must mean that and so you guys are just wrong. Especially when the attack is NOT that it does not literally say that, but it does not mean what the above poster blindly believes it to mean. So explain how God can be All Good while in our minds supposedly also doing evil.

 

[Sophrosyne]

It is indeed a fact that some English translations render the verse "creates evil". No one is ignoring that fact in this thread or arguing about the various linguistic methodology to justify that English rendering. Some, including myself suggest it is not the best rendering, which is rather obvious when posters like the one above use it to support a distorted view of God and what it would mean to say God is Good.

We are not even ignoring or denying that one could look at that verse as it is rendered ("creates evil") and blindly conclude as the above poster does that God does evil. What is obviously being ignored in this thread however, is that God is Good and we can view "creates evil" in a way that does not violate the truth that God is Good. The same way the ECFs viewed that verse thousands of years ago and the same way the Jews who gave us this verse viewed it - as opposed to the abhorrent view which can only be understood as saying God is NOT Good (meaning not All Good - not Perfect).

If however we start as the above poster repeatedly and in blind faith does with the assumption that "creates evil" can ONLY be understood as saying God's Will directs His Mind towards anything besides Good - then we cannot attempt to ignore that that blind faith in that understanding of that verse means God is NOT Good - or at least not All Good. Which was Plato's point that the same poster summarily dismissed; that when we imagine a benevolent deity, we cannot hold that thought while also imagining that deity committing evil. It is one or the other, not both.

So one has to decide what is more previous to oneself I guess. The blind faith that the Bible declares to oneself that God is not absolutely Good or that God is Good. Ideally our Faith, which is a gift from God itself, should give us the clear picture that God is Good. So we cannot let a blind faith that we have adopted for ourselves on any matter (as the poster above does in their understanding of this verse's declaration to them) allow ANY doubt in our minds that God is Good.

So if we are going to allow a blind faith to declare something true - then at least have the honesty with oneself and everyone else to admit that blind faith in the declared opinion (opinion because it is not true that God create evil), means what it means - God is not All Good. Dropping that blind faith would not mean in this case that the Bible is in error, but that one's understanding gained from it was in error.

One could also be honest is attempting to defend that blind faith by not pretending that others are attacking the grammar of the verse or English rendering, by addressing instead the attack they are making on what that blind faith expression means - which God is not All Good. It is not enough to just say - well that is what it says so it must mean that and so you guys are just wrong. Especially when the attack is NOT that it does not literally say that, but it does not mean what the above poster blindly believes it to mean. So explain how God can be All Good while in our minds supposedly also doing evil.

I think the main issue is the blind loyalty to a translation of the Bible that hasn't changed much over several thousand years rejecting the improvements modern translations have made and errors corrected. Let's face it a lot of problems with groups who call themselves Christians arise from a narrow doctrine that hinges on these "errors" with a mentality that rejects other translations that properly parse these scriptures like a plague. The fact that the NEW KJV (NKJV) version doesn't say God creates evil at all and most modern translations do not either means either these scholars are ALL idiots compared to those who did the KJV OR.... OR... they have better information.... OR... OR;.... are better educated....... OR... finally.. the notion presented has a different meaning to those who lived and spoke the KJV dialect back then.
This argument has to be rejected, logic has to be rejected, and scripture that tells us the identity of God has to be rejected to hold to this KJV translational "error".

 

[2KnowHim]

Makes no difference whether it's man or angel or beast, etc... etc... All things have their beginnings in God.

God made free will. Those he made who had free will made evil (Lucifer)

It's my understanding that most Christians believe All, including Angels have free will, so my question is...When you say "those he made who had free will" , who are you referring to? And then you say.. they are the ones who made evil/Lucifer.
I'm confused, I thought God made Lucifer.

God made Adam and Eve like him in every way . and then they conceived the idea of good and evil, Adam created evil, God gave Adam the capacity to do it.

Since when is God's image made from the dust of the Ground, and from the earth? And since when is God limited in what He could eat of like Adam was? And since when did God become apt to fall like Adam did? And since when has God ever been in disobedient to His own Word? God's image and likeness has always been His Word, His Son, Jesus Christ.
He is the image of God.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Including evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. Bubba,
To create evil and to Do evil, are two different things. I have tried numerous times to show you how this can be and you refuse to see it. We who do believe that it means what it says, understand that it is for the soul purpose of Revealing Hearts. Remember God also intentionally provoked Israel to Jealousy by another nation. He also moved David to number Israel, and raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of showing His power. God does all things after the council of His own will, not our free will.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Dr. Bubba,
To create evil and to Do evil, are two different things. I have tried numerous times to show you how this can be and you refuse to see it. We who do believe that it means what it says, understand that it is for the soul purpose of Revealing Hearts. Remember God also intentionally provoked Israel to Jealousy by another nation. He also moved David to number Israel, and raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of showing His power. God does all things after the council of His own will, not our free will.

Here is where you just don't get it, one could contend that creating good is doing good very easily, but trade the word evil for good and you reject the idea.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. Bubba,
To create evil and to Do evil, are two different things. I have tried numerous times to show you how this can be and you refuse to see it. We who do believe that it means what it says, understand that it is for the soul purpose of Revealing Hearts. Remember God also intentionally provoked Israel to Jealousy by another nation. He also moved David to number Israel, and raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of showing His power. God does all things after the council of His own will, not our free will.

Two things
Please first elaborate by explaining how doing pottery, making a clay pot and creating a clay pot are all different things and I will respond to the how the Truth in our reality that God made everything does not mean He made evil.
Second
Addressing a writers human qualities, his humanity and his view of reality from that humanity would be important in our understanding of Scripture, especially ancient Scripture where it is far less clear than in the NT quotes of God as to Whom is to be credited with what we understand is being expressed. Consider the OT describes God as essentially a mother Big Bird - like a big yellow chicken. Are we really prepared to take such expressions as literally meaning the Bible says God is big yellow chicken?

So am suggesting "God said" for instance can clearly represent a literal expression as in what Moses heard and was given to him on the mountain. Or it could also mean "God said" is what His People understood to be true about their reality rather than representing an actual true understanding that God actually spoke; especially when the writer has conflicted the thought expressed with an anthropomorphism; expressions humans can relate to - like jealousy. IOW something happened, so in explaining it how and why it happened in a record I can simply and succinctly acknowledge the truth the either God caused or allowed it by saying 'God said so it happened that....' especially true when from my view my feeling anyway is we won and God is on my side (whether that is actually true or not). Just a suggestion - take or leave it. But understand that is not a unique or modern approach to understanding such expressions in the OT vs the very modern alternative and very literal approaches being offered in this thread.

 

[2KnowHim]

Here is where you just don't get it, one could contend that creating good is doing good very easily, but trade the word evil for good and you reject the idea.

Why would I reject that? God is Good, Everything He does is Good, even when He says He creates evil and darkness, it's still All Good because God IS Good, Just Like God is Love, it's Who He is by nature. All things that He does Has purpose, unlike man when he does evil it has no purpose but to inflict pain, or grief etc...

Again I say as Paul said, when he/He chose to do good, evil was present with him/Him, so it was with God, that's how God can say He creates evil. Since He is by nature Good and when He does something it is Good, then Evil is/was a presence with Him....Just like us, when we are being led by The Spirit of God there is a good possibility that evil will be a present factor to try and distort, deceive, twist, and even kill what is Truth.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Here is where you just don't get it, one could contend that creating good is doing good very easily, but trade the word evil for good and you reject the idea.

I believe I do get it and I agree that not everyone here does. What is said is indeed true.

No one has offered an explanation of how we could view a pot maker as creating pots and also said at same time to be not doing whatever it takes to make pots. Creating pots and "doing" pot making are expressing the same thing. So is creating evil and doing evil. We cannot suggest creating evil from nothing would be a Good thing.

And I have said much more just claimed to be easy though the concept actually is rather simple. A rational being has a will and a mind and we will assume freedom. In order for a rational being to be said to create something, it first must exist in that beings mind and then that being has will that the thing be created.
So when I apply those thoughts to God, if I falsely claim God creates evil, then I am wrongly suggesting that God has first imagined in His Mind evil, then His Will has directed Him to make that imagined evil exist.

So we cannot simply suggest we let God be All Good and let Him off the hook for creating evil as in some flaw of logic we do not see that as actually doing evil. Because our belief that God is All Good REQUIRES that His Will is directed on only one thing, and that one thing is GOOD (which is Himself - what He is). There is no room in that discussion of what All Good means to include any amount of the opposite of it - evil. Neither could an understanding of evil which is simply that it is the relative absence of Good make that remotely possible to say ALL Good allows for the absence of Good within itself.

To suggest He create evil, we would have to admit that at times His Will could be directed at something other than All Good. And all word semantics/gymnastics aside, that is what we are really objecting to and what a view which says God creates evil is promoting.

 

[2KnowHim]

Please first elaborate by explaining how doing pottery, making a clay pot and creating a clay pot are all different things and I will respond to the how the Truth in our reality that God made everything does not mean He made evil.

There is no difference in making a pot or creating it. The difference comes after you have created or made it. For example, say you made something out of pottery that you thought was beautiful and had meaning, but when put on display for all to see, then it becomes "Subject to" all sorts of Evil, controversy, criticism, and yes even destruction. That's exactly what happened to God's Word, some say it's evil, it is much in controversy, it is up for criticism, and has been destroyed by some. By Creating us and the Creation itself, it has been made subject to all sorts of evil. But don't you think God Knew this before He chose to Create? Of Course He did, That's why He sent His Son. But again, this is how God creates evil and darkness, even though What He has in mind is far from what men see, because we exist and God created us and the world we live in, He knew in doing so it would also create evil by default.

Because our ways and our thoughts are not His.

 

[Colter]

People get the idea that God created evil because the Bible says so. But people also belive that God wrote an infallible Bible even though the Bible doesn't really claim that.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There is no difference in making a pot or creating it. The difference comes after you have created or made it. For example, say you made something out of pottery that you thought was beautiful and had meaning, but when put on display for all to see, then it becomes "Subject to" all sorts of Evil, controversy, criticism, and yes even destruction. That's exactly what happened to God's Word, some say it's evil, it is much in controversy, it is up for criticism, and has been destroyed by some. By Creating us and the Creation itself, it has been made subject to all sorts of evil. But don't you think God Knew this before He chose to Create? Of Course He did, That's why He sent His Son. But again, this is how God creates evil and darkness, even though What He has in mind is far from what men see, because we exist and God created us and the world we live in, He knew in doing so it would also create evil by default.

Because our ways and our thoughts are not His.

Saying God does not do/create/make the opposite of what He is, is not a claim that God does not know the potential and the actual outcome of what He will make before He makes it. That evil would be a potential (and not necessary as evidence of the bulk of angels still "with Him") would obviously be known by a Being we say has Perfect Knowledge. That Knowledge would also include knowing some of His created creature would make that potential reality, and His Knowledge would include exactly what He would do about that.

Again the idea is not a difficult one. A flash light can reveal what the darkness hid by adding something - light - not by removing something. It can also reveal what may be blocking light(the real cause of evil). Darkness is merely the relative absence of light. The existence of Goodness or Light does not REQUIRE the existence of evil or darkness.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

People get the idea that God created evil because the Bible says so. But people also belive that God wrote an infallible Bible even though the Bible doesn't really claim that.

Well some of us do absolutely believe (with true Faith) the Bible is Absolutely Infallible because of the evidence for Whom Inspired the writing and the collection of writing for it - just not in the blind faith way the people being mentioned mean infallible and inspired.

Saying the writer said "the man's eyes were as dark as a moonless night" could mean either a description of really dark brown eyes or in context and probably more likely in most instances something about the character of the man - eyes being the window to the soul and all - rather than an actual description of eye color. Same thing with God being like a big giant hen.

So while someone could say many English translations literally say "God creates evil", it does not follow simply because it says that, that the intended message is a belief that Good can do or actually does evil.

 

[jugghead]

What I believe everyone is missing here is motive, meaning: why something was created. When you only look at an end result you miss the beginning, what I mean by that is evil, like a stick of dynamite has the potential for good, to create smooth roads through mountains, but it becomes evil when it is used to kill.

God's original intention for the creation of evil was so we could understand what is good, if evil remains as just knowledge, dead of any life or power, it only serves as a light of knowledge to understand what is good and that which is good is God,

In short, the only way we could/can/ever will understand God is also to understand evil, having something to compare it to. But He and we only give life and power to the light (knowledge) of good not to the light(knowledge) of evil