Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

He is all good but he also says he creates evil. There is no conflict there.

I can agree there would be no conflict "seen" by some folks, because the opinion it could be so is not unique. I do wonder why some think it important to view God as both able and actually making evil. I suspect they irrationally believe if they did not believe it is so, that it would mean the Bible is error in the expression being considered and that thought troubles them greatly. I think that irrational fear that the Bible could be in error (rather than their understanding of it) clouds the view and enables many to simply ignore the irrationality of declaring Good creates the opposite of Himself. Some things we do not and may never know because as finite beings we have limits, and we call those things mysteries - beyond our ability to fully think through.

That Good is Good and therefore cannot create evil is not one those mysteries. If it were a mystery, then a pagan like Plato (and also equally clever Christian Fathers) would not have been able to reason it out. For a mystery to be known, God has to reveal it first and then give us the Faith to believe in the evidence of it even when the concept defies our reason (One Being, Three Persons for example). This concept discussed in this thread is not even remotely one of those of revealed "mysteries".

However I very much doubt that not "seeing it", if it truly isn't just ignored, could be a result of a rational process in the mind of anyone expressing it. My doubt becomes only more of a certainty when a person not "seeing it" also expresses that one of the greatest rational minds expressing the logic of what they are "not seeing" is devoid of any benefit for them.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I can agree there would be no conflict "seen" by some folks, because the opinion it could be so is not unique. I do wonder why some think it important to view God as both able and actually making evil. I suspect they irrationally believe if they did not believe it is so, that it would mean the Bible is error in the expression being considered and that thought troubles them greatly. I think that irrational fear that the Bible could be in error (rather than their understanding of it) clouds the view and enables many to simply ignore the irrationality of declaring Good creates the opposite of Himself. Some things we do not know, and we call those mysteries - beyond our ability to fully think through. That Good is Good and therefore cannot create evil is not one those mysteries. If it were a mystery, then a pagan like Plato would not have been able to reason it out.

However I very much doubt that not "seeing it", if it truly isn't just ignored, could be a result of a rational process in the mind of anyone expressing it. My doubt becomes only more of a certainty when a person not "seeing it" also expresses that one of the greatest rational minds expressing the logic of what they are "not seeing" is devoid of any benefit for them.

One big reason people "like" the idea that God created evil is so they can cry foul and accuse him of being unfair when he stands in judgment of them and all mankind. It is akin to participating in a "fixed" game and then being punished when you lose and this is I think behind the minds of those who reject God and also those who lean towards Universalism or UR in that it is easier to say God cannot send people to hell because he was responsible for the evil that "infected" them and "caused" them to sin in the first place. It is a "not my fault I was made that way" type excuse.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

One big reason people "like" the idea that God created evil is so they can cry foul and accuse him of being unfair when he stands in judgment of them and all mankind. It is akin to participating in a "fixed" game and then being punished when you lose and this is I think behind the minds of those who reject God and also those who lean towards Universalism or UR in that it is easier to say God cannot send people to hell because he was responsible for the evil that "infected" them and "caused" them to sin in the first place. It is a "not my fault I was made that way" type excuse.

I agree some can be moved by wanting an out to blame anything but themselves, including finding fault with God for their own actions. But am not sure someone claiming they cannot see Good creating evil as a fault, is someone looking to find someone to blame. It represents someone ignoring sound reason, which means they hold that belief blindly - blind faith.

I altered my last post to clarify more, but I strongly suspect it is fear that brings someone to express such thoughts about God. A fear that their belief the Bible is meant to give us that message might be wrong. So their blind faith that this must be true because they blindly believe the Bible says exactly that, would be shaken if they denied God creates evil. In reality it is ONLY their blind faith that the Bible says this which is in jeopardy, not their true Christian Faith, which is our gift from God and cannot be shaken externally (we are still free to turn away).

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree some can be moved by wanting an out to blame anything but themselves, including finding fault with God for their own actions. But am not sure someone claiming they cannot see Good creating evil as a fault, is someone looking to find someone to blame. It represents someone ignoring sound reason, which means they hold that belief blindly - blind faith.

I altered my last post to clarify more, but I strongly suspect it is fear that brings someone to express such thoughts about God. A fear that their belief the Bible is meant to give us that message. So their blind faith that this must be true because they blindly believe the Bible says exactly that, would be shaken if they denied God creates evil. In reality it is ONLY their blind faith that the Bible says this which is in jeopardy, not their true Christian Faith, which is our gift from God and cannot be shaken externally (we are still free to turn away).

My faith wouldn't be shaken, if good logic were presented for the scenario of God actually being the creator of evil but so far I haven't seen anyone give who posits such things take into account what IS evil logically and what IS the "act" of creating evil (can evil even be created?) and how would a being that is perfect and good not be tainted (infected) by creating it. Is creating evil doing evil? Why are most newer translations of the Bible rejecting that (flawed) verse in the KJV replacing evil with words that aren't the same?

To put it bluntly those who promote the idea God authors evil make God into an imperfect being which IMO is NOT God at all. We see how strongly God abhors sin even to the point of banishing those who have if to hell and I fail to see that evil and sin aren't in the same category in that he hates evil itself as he does sin so I cannot see him creating evil (sinning) in the first place. To say God "does" evil is wrong also because if we do evil we sin so one could contend God also would be doing sinning by doing evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

And if you had a child that become a mass murderer you would also be guilty of the evil that child does.... No, I don't buy that logic for a minute. While it is possible that God knew that the devil would exist prior to creating an angel he also knew everyone throughout mankind that would love him and want to be with him and decided that regardless of the flaws in all of creation that would happen it was his will to continue on with it all. God knew evil would exist, as he knew that allowing the possibility of it by choice sooner or later it would occur.

Then your theory falls apart like a two dollar suit case. God is the Creator of all things. If He is not the origin of all things including evil, and sin, then we have another creator. And that presents a whole other problem.

But, I also see Him paying the price for all things evil, when He gave us His Son.
The wages of sin is Death, and He paid that price through Jesus Christ, when He took on the sin of The world.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Then your theory falls apart like a two dollar suit case. God is the Creator of all things. If He is not the origin of all things including evil, and sin, then we have another creator. And that presents a whole other problem.

But, I also see Him paying the price for all things evil, when He gave us His Son.
The wages of sin is Death, and He paid that price through Jesus Christ, when He took on the sin of The world.

So in other words God is the origin of all your evil thoughts then you can do what you please and God is responsible for ALL sin. I contend that evil itself doesn't exist apart from a being able to commit such evil. In other words without man the evil that man thinks just doesn't happen because he isn't existing to "create" or rather do it. The source of evil is in the minds of those who do it, it is not created apart from the mind and floating around void of spirit on the winds. The tree in the garden was knowledge of good and evil... why not mention this as a source too?

 

[2KnowHim]

Your so quick to say that God didn't create evil (when scripture plainly says so), but I have yet to hear anyone say where it did come from if it's origins is not in God.
And before you say the devil, may I remind you that God created the being we also call the devil.
And even if you say man is responsible for sin, may I also remind you that, it is written that "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin passed upon all men". Rom. 5:12 In order for it to enter into the world, it still had to exist before it could enter. So whether angel or man, God still Created them both, therefore God is the origin of both, as with all things.


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[2KnowHim]

So in other words God is the origin of all your evil thoughts then you can do what you please and God is responsible for ALL sin.

Evil thoughts come from the enmity (which is the carnal mind) that is against God. Rom. 8:7
God is the one who placed it there Gen.3:15
Yes, God WAS responsible, that's why He sent His Son. He took that responsibility on Himself.

 

[2KnowHim]

How can he who has died to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree some can be moved by wanting an out to blame anything but themselves, including finding fault with God for their own actions. But am not sure someone claiming they cannot see Good creating evil as a fault, is someone looking to find someone to blame. It represents someone ignoring sound reason, which means they hold that belief blindly - blind faith.

I altered my last post to clarify more, but I strongly suspect it is fear that brings someone to express such thoughts about God. A fear that their belief the Bible is meant to give us that message might be wrong. So their blind faith that this must be true because they blindly believe the Bible says exactly that, would be shaken if they denied God creates evil. In reality it is ONLY their blind faith that the Bible says this which is in jeopardy, not their true Christian Faith, which is our gift from God and cannot be shaken externally (we are still free to turn away).

I think to some it is easier to identify with a God that is like us..... imperfect and to think such an imperfect God must be MORE forgiving to the point of letting us get away with more than we should and that would be ignoring him all our lives and expecting him to accept us after we die. If we are the source of our own evil and God is the source of NO evil and his glory destroys evil in itself then he has every right to toss those who ARE evil in hell where it can be contained forever.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Evil thoughts come from the enmity (which is the carnal mind) that is against God. Rom. 8:7
God is the one who placed it there Gen.3:15
Yes, God WAS responsible, that's why He sent His Son. He took that responsibility on Himself.

I'm sorry but the Bible itself says we are held accountable for our OWN evil, not God. They aren't God's sins but OUR sins.

 

[2KnowHim]

I think to some it is easier to identify with a God that is like us..... imperfect and to think such an imperfect God must be MORE forgiving to the point of letting us get away with more than we should and that would be ignoring him all our lives and expecting him to accept us after we die. If we are the source of our own evil and God is the source of NO evil and his glory destroys evil in itself then he has every right to toss those who ARE evil in hell where it can be contained forever.

You talk a lot but don't say much. Who created Evil if it was not God?

 

[Sophrosyne]

You talk a lot but don't say much. Who created Evil if it was not God?

Those who chose to rebel or defy God via their own (God given) free will.

 

[2KnowHim]

Those who chose to rebel or defy God via their own (God given) free will.

So your saying mankind created evil? Because All have sinned against God and fallen short, or is this news to you?

 

[2KnowHim]

Let me put it another way......are you the exception of not ever having rebelled or defied God?

 

[Sophrosyne]

So your saying mankind created evil? Because All have sinned against God and fallen short, or is this news to you?

You aren't listening, you are still stuck on this idea that evil is "created" instead of it simply being a choice. Evil doesn't exist apart from choice and our fallen nature has us choosing to do evil (sin) but it is still OUR choice and the Bible says Jesus died for OUR sins.... not God's sins. If God is responsible then they would be God's sins not ours. If God is the author of Evil then he is also the author of sin and a sinner and a sinner is unable to be a savior by God's own words which means God isn't God and we cannot be saved.
To put it to the point if God created evil as you contend then we are doomed because nobody can save us from evil according to God it takes someone without sin (evil) to be a savior and God wouldn't be without evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

I am listening, and you're avoiding the questions I asked you.
You said, these are the ones who created evil....

Those who chose to rebel or defy God via their own (God given) free will.

If this is true, then you might as well say that doesn't include you, because you have never rebelled or defied God.
And in that case, when Jesus died for the sin of the world, it didn't include you, because you are not in that group that you say is the cause of evil or sin.
See you can't have it both ways, just to suit you.
The bible says All have sinned, that has nothing to do with Freewill.
Jesus Christ died for the sin of the World, and still, that has nothing to do with Freewill either.

And here's a secret for you to consider, even those that rebelled and deified Him, He created them too, and again, we all have our origins in God. Freewill has nothing to do with it. Israel rebelled and defied God, are you saying that He didn't create them? Even though they did, God still is the one who created them.

 

[ewq1938]

That Good is Good and therefore cannot create evil is not one those mysteries.

Yet God states he does create evil so your reasonings fall flat.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Micah 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

This is also in the masculine form meaning evil as it is translated.

God does create darkness, I've seen no one challenge that. I see God creating darkness in the exact same way that he creates evil.

God used light and darkness, and repeated that by using peace and evil so I see the first two being equal to the second two in comparison.

So, if someone wants to change evil into something more *easy* to swallow or accept, then they also have to change darkness by the same logic. If God can create darkness (and we know he is speaking figuratively not only literally) then He can also create literal evil in whatever form he sees fit for the need.

The other issue is light and darkness and peace are all nouns but Ra/evil is an adjective. A word such as calamity is a noun. God intentionally used an adjective as opposite of a noun when using peace vs evil. If someone tries to suggest replacing the adj of evil with a noun such as calamity they are altering what God originally intended to be used.


This is a common argument on this subject but it's flawed logic. Here God uses evil in opposition to peace, and light in opposition to darkness. It doesn't matter if we think they are not perfectly balanced. If God wanted to say calamity he would have used the feminine form or had used the Hebrew word for calamity:

Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.


H343
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'e^yd
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From the same as H181 (in the sense of bending down); oppression; by implication misfortune, ruin: - calamity, destruction.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I am listening, and you're avoiding the questions I asked you.
You said, these are the ones who created evil....

If this is true, then you might as well say that doesn't include you, because you have never rebelled or defied God.
And in that case, when Jesus died for the sin of the world, it didn't include you, because you are not in that group that you say is the cause of evil or sin.
See you can't have it both ways, just to suit you.
The bible says All have sinned, that has nothing to do with Freewill.
Jesus Christ died for the sin of the World, and still, that has nothing to do with Freewill either.

And here's a secret for you to consider, even those that rebelled and deified Him, He created them too, and again, we all have our origins in God. Freewill has nothing to do with it. Israel rebelled and defied God, are you saying that He didn't create them? Even though they did, God still is the one who created them.

Actually when one hears the Gospel and rejects it they are definitely defying God's will. And in actuality regardless of the Gospel ALL should be seeking God and loving one another which is his will but instead most are in rebellion. God didn't drown all but Noah and his family because he just wanted to..... those who drowned were in defiance and rebellion. Freewill has everything to do with it or the Gospel itself is bogus and those who died preaching and teaching it were fools when all they had to do is blame God for their sins and live it up and in the end according to those who call God the source of evil he has to save them all because it is his fault.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

My faith wouldn't be shaken, if good logic were presented for the scenario of God actually being the creator of evil but so far I haven't seen anyone give who posits such things take into account what IS evil logically and what IS the "act" of creating evil (can evil even be created?) and how would a being that is perfect and good not be tainted (infected) by creating it. Is creating evil doing evil? Why are most newer translations of the Bible rejecting that (flawed) verse in the KJV replacing evil with words that aren't the same?

To put it bluntly those who promote the idea God authors evil make God into an imperfect being which IMO is NOT God at all. We see how strongly God abhors sin even to the point of banishing those who have if to hell and I fail to see that evil and sin aren't in the same category in that he hates evil itself as he does sin so I cannot see him creating evil (sinning) in the first place. To say God "does" evil is wrong also because if we do evil we sin so one could contend God also would be doing sinning by doing evil.

To put it bluntly back, the only reason those question about the origin of evil (I think it might have been mentioned as an aside at least once already) have not repeatedly come up is that until now it was not asked and we never got past needing to see the Bible as putting the blame for it on God.

Now that I have re-read my OP, the origin evil is mentioned there and I recall that coming up several times, perhaps before everyone come lately had joined the party.

Evil becomes only a potential as soon as God made creatures to Love and a choice to return that Love or not. Some of us call that free will. So the refusal, rejection to love God in return - which is in essence to Love and Know Good - is always a sin and represents evil (Darkness) - the opposite or more precisely the relative absence of Good (Light).