Did God commend or approve Rahab's lie?

[timewerx]

Sorry friend. That's just nonsense (according to the Word).
If you break the Law it is sin according to the Bible.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
(1 John 3:4).

There's only two unbreakable laws - love God above all and love your neighbors as yourself.

THe other laws hang upon these (Matthew 22:37-40).

Jesus had to break the sabbath to do good works to fulfill the higher law (love your neighbors as yourself).

No use twisting scriptures. Jesus did break Sabbath.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's only two unbreakable laws - love God above all and love your neighbors as yourself.

THe other laws hang upon these (Matthew 22:37-40).

Jesus had to break the sabbath to do good works to fulfill the higher law (love your neighbors as yourself).

No use twisting scriptures. Jesus did break Sabbath.

Okay. Jesus did not break the Sabbath. The Jews had false man made ideas about the Sabbath.
Again, if Jesus broke the Law, He could not be our sinless Savior.

 

[timewerx]

Okay. Jesus did not break the Sabbath. The Jews had false man made ideas about the Sabbath.
Again, if Jesus broke the Law, He could not be our sinless Savior.

Sabbath is good.

But "hangs upon" the two top laws. If it interferes with top 1 or top 2 law, then it can be set aside to fulfill either top 1 or 2.

The Pharisees made a mistake that all laws are absolute. Not all of them. Only 1 and 2 are absolute.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In a war, its allowed to lie to your enemy. Deception is always the part of any war.

Its like lying to Nazi's that you do not have any Jews hidden in your house.

I do not see that in war a Christian is allowed to lie to the enemy at all. Jesus did not lie to the enemy ever. I think the matter hinges on the level of one's faith. God would likely want that we trust him and tell the truth even in war and even to evil intent. But some do not have that level of faith and resort to lies. So the best is to tell the truth or say nothing at all as Jesus did at his trial until a critical point where he had to speak under Jewish law. But if a person has little faith and relys on their own means rather than God in the crunch, that is better than no faith at all.

 

[Monna]

I know that the OP is about Rahab's so-called lie, but I find it curious that no one has commented on the fact that the two Hebrew spies found their way rather quickly to a prostitute.

As to the "lie" as far as we can read in the scriptures God does not tell us whether He approved or disapproved. Why are we spending so much time to second-guess the Judge? To us the scriptures say "Judge not that ye be not judged."

The 6 pages of discussion on this thread, that sprung up so quickly, makes me wonder whether or not the whole question of "little white lies" is something we worry about a lot. Are we focusing on Rahab as a cover to try to find some justification for our "innocent deceptions," especially when we think we are committing them for someone else's, or "the greater" good?

 

[RDKirk]

I know that the OP is about Rahab's so-called lie, but I find it curious that no one has commented on the fact that the two Hebrew spies found their way rather quickly to a prostitute.

A female innkeeper was considered (or perhaps was) also a prostitute. It was a place for strangers (people not of the same people) to stay, and in particular the house of a harlot was a place that such strangers would not be asked any questions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not see that in war a Christian is allowed to lie to the enemy at all. Jesus did not lie to the enemy ever. I think the matter hinges on the level of one's faith. God would likely want that we trust him and tell the truth even in war and even to evil intent. But some do not have that level of faith and resort to lies. So the best is to tell the truth or say nothing at all as Jesus did at his trial until a critical point where he had to speak under Jewish law. But if a person has little faith and relys on their own means rather than God in the crunch, that is better than no faith at all.

Currently, I am now leaning towards the possibility of a new position I had not considered before. I discovered it yesterday, but fleshed it out more in my thoughts this morning. This is:

#1. Rahab did not actually lie, but she used clever word play with the guards. There is a difference between declaring a person's current location that you last remembered, vs. declaring where a person is going or headed (of which you may not know). In other words, in Joshua 2:5, Rahab was telling the guards that she did not know the destination of where the two spies were going in regards to either their destination within the city, or their return destination, or some other headed destination, etc.; She basically said this as a form of distraction away from from the bit of information of her hiding them on top of her roof. The KJV is a little less clear on this fact in Joshua 2:5 unless you closely examine the word "whither" as meaning, "To what place, absolutely" and to understand that the definition of "went" is simply "the past tense of go." (Which can be interpreted as: "were going"). So Rahab's words to the guards would read like this:

"whither [i.e. To what place, absolutely] the men went [were going]
I wot [know] not:" (Joshua 2:5) (KJV).
​

(Note: To see my sources for these dictionary definitions,
see my post #98).

Anyways, even Modern Translations confirm this. In the Christian Standard Bible, Rahab says,

"I don’t know where they were going." (Joshua 2:5) (CSB).
​

In the New English Translation, Rahab says,

"I don’t know where they were heading." (NET).
​

This is not a lie to say that she did not know where they were headed to (i.e. Their ultimate destination). For it was true that Rahab had no clue where the two spies were headed. The next part of her words may seem also like a lie, but they are not. For she said, "pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them." (Joshua 2:5).​

Again, taking these words a generic way can be interpreted as merely words of encouragement and not words of certainty that she was confident that her directions were going to truly help them. How so? Well, she is basically being like a cheerleader at this point. "You can do it, guys!" But she did not know if victory would be in their hands or not because she cannot predict the future. She is saying, "if you pursue or hunt for them quickly, you find them." "You can do it. Go guys." Just like a cheerleader cheers her team on to succeed (and yet she does not know the certainty of their success or not).


Side Note:

Oh, and I cannot take the credit for this. I would like to thank the Lord Jesus Christ, and a certain poster named "1213" for my recent discovery on this matter. I am still praying, and seeking the Scriptures on this, but I feel like this new position seems to make the whole of Scripture and God's good ways flow together in perfect harmony.

 

[RDKirk]

I do not see that in war a Christian is allowed to lie to the enemy at all. Jesus did not lie to the enemy ever.

Except that He did practice deception of the enemy.

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For not even his brothers believed in him.

Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee.

But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, “Where is he?” -- John 7

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Except that He did practice deception of the enemy.

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For not even his brothers believed in him.

Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee.

But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, “Where is he?” -- John 7

I don't believe deception is the same thing as lying. Hiding the truth is not the same as saying something that is completely untrue. Jesus was referring how He would not go publicly but that does not mean that He could not go secretly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Except that He did practice deception of the enemy.

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For not even his brothers believed in him.

Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee.

But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, “Where is he?” -- John 7

I know this verse. It comes from texts that removed the word “Yet”
so that the Sin of God can look
as though he lied. It makes no sense either because going to the Jewish feast would have been expected. But dubious texts found a way to get him to look like he lied. In any case, the siblings weren’t the enemy.

 

[Philip_B]

I don't believe deception is the same thing as lying. Hiding the truth is not the same as saying something that is completely untrue. Jesus was referring how He would not go publicly but that does not mean that He could not go secretly.

That is very much in the tradition of John Henry Cardinal Newman who in Apologia Pro Vita Sua made something of the difference between an equivocation and a lie, and saw that this was sometimes our nearest approach to the truth.

We have got used to political personalities who have lost the art of giving a straight answer preferring a ramble intended to misinform.

“The Art of the Deal,” 1987 - Donald J Trump: The final key to the way I promote is bravado. I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration — and a very effective form of promotion.​

I don't find this overly endearing, nor even particularly helpful. The approach of Joseph Fletcher in Situation Ethics makes more sense. There are a number of virtues to which we should aspire. Love, Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, along with Truth and Hope. The difficulty is always found in situations where they appear as competing interests. For Rahab the situation presented where Truth was in competition with Kindness and Faithfulness and she ultimately chose to tell a lie in order to preserve the lives of the spies. This is about being real in an imperfect world. The difficulty we face is when Truth is the easy victim and the first to fall.

 

[RDKirk]

I know this verse. It comes from texts that removed the word “Yet”
so that the Sin of God can look
as though he lied. It makes no sense either because going to the Jewish feast would have been expected. But dubious texts found a way to get him to look like he lied. In any case, the siblings weren’t the enemy.

There are two points there. The first is what He told his brothers--and yes, they were His spiritual enemy at that moment, just as Peter was in one moment. The second is that Jesus hid His identity as He entered and moved around the city.

Leviticus 5 tells us clearly that it is not only a sin to bear false witness, but also a sin not to tell what one knows to be the truth.

That would make Jesus a sinner...if and only if we ignore the specific context in which both the 8th commandment and Leviticus 5 are applied by scripture.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't believe deception is the same thing as lying. Hiding the truth is not the same as saying something that is completely untrue. Jesus was referring how He would not go publicly but that does not mean that He could not go secretly.

So you're in favor of what Satan does all the time.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Did God commend or approve Rahab's lie?

She had the choice between disobeying two parts of God's will, avoiding telling a lie or protecting God's people from certain death. Sometimes, as in war, we have a choice both directions of which involve violations of God's law. She chose to protect the spies and told a lie. Such moral dilemmas happen rarely.

In her case, she chose to follow the higher moral principle of siding with God's people and protecting their lives rather than telling the truth. I think that God approved of her choice of the higher moral principle.

 

[1213]

...The first lie she told was that she didn't know where the spies were, when in fact she had just hidden them on her roof.....

Yes, she had hidden them, and she said “but I knew not whence they were”, which means she didn’t know where they were from. Which I think can be true. And she also told that in the night they went out to somewhere she didn’t know and it can also be true. Not telling that they came back and are hiding there is not same as lying. She suggested that if they are fast, they could find them, which also was true, because they were near. She didn’t tell to where they should go to find them. The story tells that those who were seeking ”pursued after them the way to the Jordan unto the fords”. By what the Bible tells, the woman didn’t lie, she just didn’t tell the whole truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you're in favor of what Satan does all the time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

She had the choice between disobeying two parts of God's will, avoiding telling a lie or protecting God's people from certain death. Sometimes, as in war, we have a choice both directions of which involve violations of God's law. She chose to protect the spies and told a lie. Such moral dilemmas happen rarely.

In her case, she chose to follow the higher moral principle of siding with God's people and protecting their lives rather than telling the truth. I think that God approved of her choice of the higher moral principle.

Most people think Rahab lied. Some people think she employed an art of war tactic. I believe it is neither of these two things. I believe she used clever word play and she did not lie. See my post #107 (if you are interested).

Blessings to you in the Lord today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Many people hear the word "deception,"
and automatically think it is always bad.
In fact, you look in the dictionary and find a bad definition.

There is good deception and bad deception.

While Wikipedia appears to also color the word "deception" as bad, it does offer us a glimpse into the truth behind this word.

"Deception is an act or statement which misleads, hides the truth, or promotes a belief, concept, or idea that is not true."​

Deception - Wikipedia

The words in green above is a good form of deception.
The words in red above is a bad form of deception.

If deception was always bad, then we must conclude that the two spies that Joshua sent were bad. This is simply not the case.

In other words, good deception is merely hiding the truth,
but not lying or being untruthful.

Scripture says it is to the glory of God to conceal a matter.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2).

Jesus did not openly declare that He was God. Jesus even evaded this truth when the Jews wanted to stone Him by His quoting of Scripture about how "ye are gods..." (John 10:4) (Psalms 82:6). Jesus was not giving them the whole truth here. He was evading it so as to protect His mission. As another poster pointed out, Jesus said He was not going to go to a certain party, but He went in secret. This again, is a form of hiding or a form of good deception, because they thought He was going but they did not know He was going in secret. Jesus spoke of His resurrection, but His disciples did not get it at first. God was sort of in a way hiding this truth from them until after Jesus had risen. For Jesus could have sat down and fully explained it to them. In Joshua 8, the Lord gave Joshua a battle tactic that would deceive the enemy. This was a good form of deception. No untruth was used in the deception. No lies were spoken and no illusion that was untrue was put forth.

Bad deception is something that promotes an idea that is entirely not true. This falls into the realm of something that is a lie and is completely untrue. It would be like a man named Rick saying there are purple cats that breath fire, or green cats that can fly. This would be like when the devil told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the tree that God forbid her and Adam to eat of (See: Genesis 3). A lie is saying something that is entirely not true or doing something that is totally contrary to any kind of truth. I believe that when King David acted insane, this was a form of lying by a form of performance. David was not really insane. So this was a lie. It was a bad deception on David's part. There is no way to find him innocent in this regards unless David was literally insane (Which seems highly unlikely).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Rahab did not lie, but she employed a form of good deception by using clever word play in Joshua 2:5. She was referring to the two spies ultimate heading or final destination (of which she was unaware of), and she was cheering the guards with following words of encouragement (like a cheerleader cheers on her team without knowing whether or not they will win). If Rahab said she did not know where the two spies are this very moment, she would have lied. But she did not say that. She was referring to their end destination. Very clever she was. Most people just read too fast past these little details and just throw the hammer down at her because that is what most Christians believe these days. In fact, most Christians believe God told Hosea to marry a prostitute. Yet, if they were to read their KJV, it is in reference to marrying a woman who was a people of idolatry. It's not referring to her being a prostitute.

 

[Philip_B]

I believe Rahab did not lie, but she employed a form of good deception by using clever word play in Joshua 2:5. She was referring to the two spies ultimate heading or final destination (of which she was unaware of), and she was cheering the guards with following words of encouragement (like a cheerleader cheers on her team without knowing whether or not they will win). If Rahab said she did not know where the two spies are this very moment, she would have lied. But she did not say that. She was referring to their end destination. Very clever she was. Most people just read too fast past these little details and just throw the hammer down at her because that is what most Christians believe these days. In fact, most Christians believe God told Hosea to marry a prostitute. Yet, if they were to read their KJV, it is in reference to marrying a woman who was a people of idolatry. It's not referring to her being a prostitute.

So you seem to suggest that while God would not approve of a lie, he is happy with misleading and deceptive practices so long as it is clever. That would seem to to embody a level of sophistry.