Did God commend or approve Rahab's lie?

[Bible Highlighter]

This is how Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought when he planned to kill Hitler and lied to many people, and justified it. Do you think God will judge him for plotting to kill Hitler and lying to the Nazis?

I already addressed this in post #136.

 

[John Owen]

I already addressed this in post #136.

No you did not. Have you read Bonhoeffer?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No you did not. Have you read Bonhoeffer?

No. I don’t care to. It’s not the Bible. The problem is letting outside ideas of creating one’s own morality and goodness sneak in. I believe the father of lies is the devil. I believe it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, God cannot commend lying. It’s a logical deduction that you have to ignore.

 

[John Owen]

No. I don’t care to. It’s not the Bible. The problem is letting outside ideas of creating one’s own morality and goodness sneak in. I believe the father of lies is the devil. I believe it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, God cannot commend lying. It’s a logical deduction that you have to ignore.

The problem is that you automatically assume that everyone agrees with how you define the word lie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem is that you automatically assume that everyone agrees with how you define the word lie.

I fell for that deception at one time and I used to think it was okay for the Israelite to lie during war time or to save Israelite life (i.e. the art of war) but then I abandoned that viewpoint because it is still technically lying. It’s a slippery slope to justify a particular sin in order to save life. What other sins would one be willing to commit in order to save life?

 

[John Owen]

I fell for that deception at one time and I used to think it was okay for the Israelite to lie during war time or to save Israelite life (i.e. the art of war) but then I abandoned that viewpoint because it is still technically lying. It’s a slippery slope to justify a particular sin in order to save life. What other sins would one be willing to commit in order to save life?

None. It has nothing to do with justifying a sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For example: Would you and your family be willing to die and not take the mark of the beast?
For if you took the mark, you would be able to feed your family. But your soul would be lost.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

None. It has nothing to do with justifying a sin.

At the heart, what is wrong with lying?
Does a lie stop being a lie when a person is in wartime?

 

[RDKirk]

While I do hold to two possibilities on what happened with Rahab, I do tend to lean heavily on the possibility that Rahab did not even lie but she used clever word play with the guards. Her words were true, but they could be misread in the wrong way by her clever word play. So in short, it’s possible Rahab did not lie and so God commending Rahab for her faith for her sending out the spies another way would not have been a problem because her sending out the spies another way was not tied to any kind of lie. Anyways, whatever truly happened, I know for sure God did not commend Rahab for lying (if indeed she did lie).

If "clever word play" does not equal "lie" in your book, then Satan never lied to Eve. You're trying to dance around the fact of deception, when, in fact deception is the point.

That is still deception. The question is whether deception is always "sin."

Rahab began her deception of the enemies of Israel when she hid the spies. She further deceived the enemies of Israel by sending them in a different direction from the direction she knew the spies would take.

This is not different from David pretending to be insane before the Philistines. This is not a different situation from the Hebrew midwives in Egypt deceiving the Egyptian officials of Pharoah. This is no different from God biding Moses to tell Pharoah that they were only going into the desert for three days, when in fact God had told them to hightail it to the promised land. This is no different from Jesus telling His brothers He was not going to Jerusalem, when in fact He was going in secret (and going in secret is an entire additional deception).

Deception of the enemies of God's people in spiritual or actual combat is not a sin. It's as simple as that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If "clever word play" does not equal "lie" in your book, then Satan never lied to Eve. You're trying to dance around the fact of deception, when, in fact deception is the point.

That is still deception. The question is whether deception is always "sin."

Rahab began her deception of the enemies of Israel when she hid the spies. She further deceived the enemies of Israel by sending them in a different direction from the direction she knew the spies would take.

This is not different from David pretending to be insane before the Philistines. This is not a different situation from the Hebrew midwives in Egypt deceiving the Egyptian officials of Pharoah. This is no different from God biding Moses to tell Pharoah that they were only going into the desert for three days, when in fact God had told them to hightail it to the promised land. This is no different from Jesus telling His brothers He was not going to Jerusalem, when in fact He was going in secret (and going in secret is an entire additional deception).

Deception of the enemies of God's people in spiritual or actual combat is not a sin. It's as simple as that.

This is a huge misconnect. There is a difference between hiding a truth (or misdirection while telling the truth), vs. lying (saying something that is completely not true in any way). For example: if a person hides their safe behind a painting, that is not lying.

Jesus came to this earth and He did not make the fact clear with everyone that He was God Almighty in the flesh by revealing His glory to everyone that He was God. Yes, there were times He did declare He was God but it was with Scripture and it was not all the time. People thought He was the Messiah, but not every one was saying He was God (because He did not make that fact abundantly clear to everyone). For example: Do you remember when Jesus said to the Jews that He and His Father were one and they wanted to stone him for it? Remember when Jesus said that it is written in the Law (the Scriptures) that “you are gods”? (See: John 10:23-39). So why would Jesus not just stand His ground and declare more boldly to their face that He was God and or show forth His power that He was God? Instead, He diverted away from the topic or issue by quoting Scripture about how the Israelites are gods (i.e. kings). This diversion shows that Jesus was using misdirection to hide the truth from them that He is fully God (Whereby if He did show them that He was God, they would have no hope but to either run in fear or bow down before Him). So Jesus hid a truth from them. Jesus made them think He was not fully God in the flesh by not showing His glory, and by not opening their understanding of the Scriptures that He was God. So the Jews believed something that was not true when Jesus could have given them a vision of Him that He is God, etcetera. Jesus did not do that. Jesus did not reveal all of who He was. This is hiding a truth and or misdirection making them to think what they want to think (Without one actually lying or saying an untruth). Lying is speaking something that is totally not true. The words I used involving Rahab could be read from a perspective that was true. If one hears something that is not correct, that is on them for not listening carefully enough.

Think. How many times did the disciples misunderstand Jesus? If that was the case, was Jesus being deceptive by not speaking up and clarifying the truth with them? No. It means, they were not listening.

Remember, the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus? Did Jesus fully reveal who He was with them? Was that bad of Jesus to hide who He really was? No, of course not. That’s not lying. Lying is saying words that in no way can be possibly true.

 

[RDKirk]

This is a huge misconnect. There is a difference between hiding a truth (or misdirection while telling the truth), vs. lying (saying something that is completely not true in any way). For example: if a person hides their safe behind a painting, that is not lying.

No, there isn't. The only difference displayed in scripture is whether the deception is against those to whom the truth is owed (a deception that would be a sin), or to the enemies of one's people (a deception that would be laudable).

 

[Clare73]

So did Rahab lie?

Both Rahab and the midwives of Exodus 1 lied.

Preservation of innocent (guilty of no crime) human life trumps all moral law, and is the first moral law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Both Rahab and the midwives of Exodus 1 lied.

Rahab’s situation is more complicated and unclear. She could have lied, but if she did, God did not commend her for lying. The midwives did not lie. If they did, Pharaoh would have killed them.

Preservation of innocent (guilty of no crime) human life trumps all moral law, is the first moral law.

So then you and your family would take the mark of the beast so as to be fed instead of starving to death? I would rather lose my life for Christ then to lose my soul. Then again, the kind of thinking many in Christianity today are being set up for them to take the mark. Any evil can be justified as long as it is done in the name of saving life.

 

[Clare73]

Rahab’s situation is more complicated and unclear. She could have lied, but if she did, God did not commend her for lying. The midwives did not lie.

Genesis 1:17 says they did.

If they did, Pharaoh would have killed them.

If he knew they were lying. . .

So then you and your family would take the mark of the beast so as to be fed instead of starving to death?

Taking the mark of the beast is neither command, nor moral law. It is an option.

I would rather lose my life for Christ then to lose my soul. Then again, the kind of thinking many in Christianity today are being set up for them to take the mark. Any evil can be justified as long as it is done in the name of saving life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, there isn't. The only difference displayed in scripture is whether the deception is against those to whom the truth is owed (a deception that would be a sin), or to the enemies of one's people (a deception that would be laudable).

Chapter and verse.

Again, Jesus is our example (according to Scripture), and He was in a disguise of sorts and did not announce who He was right away to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Genesis 1:17 says they did.

You mean Exodus 1:17. Genesis 1 is dealing with the creation. Anyways, in Exodus 1, there is no mention of the words saying, “and the midwives lied to Pharoah”

If he knew they were lying. . .

Read this article here and make sure you carefully read the verses that they put forth and really meditate and think on those verses.

Is Lying Justified?

Taking the mark of the beast is neither command, nor moral law. It is an option.

Before you said, I quote: “Preservation of innocent (guilty of no crime) human life trumps all moral law, is the first moral law.”

So again, your innocent child is starving and is going to die if he does not get food. Would you give him the mark of the beast so that he could eat food (even though it would cost him his soul with the Lord)?

Yes, or no?

See Matthew 5:37.

 

[JAL]

Everyone: you are making this too complicated. Let's simplify. A fair and just ruler (God) will judge a man ONLY on whether he did what was right to the best of his knowledge and ability. Formally I call it the "rule of conscience" defined as:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and action-B is good, I should opt for B."

Since this definition doesn't actually mention the term conscience, I don't want to hear any objections about the unreliability of conscience - all such objections are moot/strawmen.

Therefore: if Rahab acted with clear conscience - if she acted in good conscience - it was a righteous act. So yes, a lie spoken in good conscience is perfectly upstanding. In fact the truth would be immoral in those circumstances. (As there are no possible exceptions to the above-defined rule of conscience).

Is this outlook antinomian? Not at all. GOD has a conscience - one dedicated to fostering a safe and fruitful environment for each of us. He is therefore committed to imposing rules/laws (i.e. boundaries) aimed to prevent us from harming each other and damaging our relationships. Meaning, He seeks to PERSUADE our conscience that His ways are the best ways.

As a sidenote, most Christians think that biblical exegesis - scholarly analysis - is the best way to learn His rules/laws. In truth, Direct Revelation is the ONLY way to be sure of His specific will for your life. "My sheep listen to my voice" (John 10:27).

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Clare73]

You mean Exodus 1:17.

Oops!. . .yep.

Genesis 1 is dealing with the creation. Anyways, in Exodus 1, there is no mention of the words saying, “and the midwives lied to Pharoah”

Read this article here and make sure you carefully read the verses that they put forth and really meditate and think on those verses.

Is Lying Justified?

The argument in Rahab's case is assumption.

Likewise, that means if a serial killer breaks into my home, I must tell him the truth about the number and names of my children and where he can find them--all playing in the neighbor's yard.

Not buyin' it. . .preservation of innocent (guilty of no crime) human life trumps all moral law, and is the first moral law.

Before you said, I quote: “Preservation of innocent (guilty of no crime) human life trumps all moral law, is the first moral law.”
So again, your innocent child is starving and is going to die if he does not get food.
Would you give him the mark of the beast so that he could eat food (even though it would cost him his soul with the Lord)?

Yes, or no?

Have you stopped beating animals?

Yes or no?

See Matthew 5:37.

My giving a child the mark of the beast is not indication of the child's denial of God.
And denying God is not a moral law against my neighbor, which moral law would be trumped by preservation of life.
For denying God is against God himself, who trumps all mankind.

 

[Der Alte]

Two more events involving "lying." God appeared to approve it in vss. 12:17 and 26:12.

Genesis 12:11-13
(11) And it came to pass, when he [Abram] was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
(12) Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
(13) Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 12:17-18
(17) And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
(18) And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
= = = = =
Genesis 26:6-12
(6) And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:
(7) And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.
(8) And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and, behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife.
(9) And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife: and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.
(10) And Abimelech said, What is this thou hast done unto us? one of the people might lightly have lien with thy wife, and thou shouldest have brought guiltiness upon us.
(11) And Abimelech charged all his people, saying, He that toucheth this man or his wife shall surely be put to death.
(12) Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. ​