Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

So in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus basically says we have to keep all of the law until two conditions are met:
Heaven and Earth pass away
and/or
all is accomplished.

If we say that there is at least some part of the law that we don't have to keep today,
that would mean that one/both conditions have been met.

For me, that's where It comes in handy see heaven and earth passing away as a figure of speech for a cataclysmic upheaval in God's order of things. Then it all fits together.

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

expos4ever said:
Well, is this, too, a coincidence?: (a) the lid of the ark of the covenant has an angel at either end; and (b) Jesus's followers find there is an angel at either end of the slab from which He arose on the 3rd day.

If the ark is a foreshadowing of Jesus' tomb, that could also change how we think of the ten commandments being placed inside the ark.

Clare73 · May 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
So in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus basically says we have to keep all of the law until two conditions are met:
Heaven and Earth pass away
and/or
all is accomplished.

"Until heaven and earth pass away (= time frame),
nothing will disappear from the law until all is accomplished (event).

So the question becomes: "What is to be completely accomplished?"

That would be the cross. . .the penalty for our sin debt paid.

If we say that there is at least some part of the law that we don't have to keep today,
that would mean that one/both conditions have been met.

For me, that's where It comes in handy see heaven and earth passing away as a figure of speech for a cataclysmic upheaval in God's order of things. Then it all fits together.

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
"Until heaven and earth pass away (= time frame),
nothing will disappear from the law until all is accomplished (event).

So the question becomes: "What is to be completely accomplished?"

That would be the cross. . .the penalty for our sin debt paid.

That's certainly a possible way of dealing with the two "untils" in the sentence.

Clare73 · May 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
That's certainly a possible way of dealing with the two "untils" in the sentence.

And it enjoys agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
And it enjoys agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

Yes. I was about to add, but you beat me to it...

I used to see it the way you are describing, and as I said, I still see it as a possibility.

But lately I've been swayed by @expos4ever's suggestion that heaven and Earth passing away is a kind of idiom (my words) for a great upheaval.

Either way, though, the result is the same: the law ended at the cross.

expos4ever · May 1, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
The Spirit is given to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey. Acts 5:32. The Holy Spirit and the law of God are not in conflict.

We have been through this many, many, many times.

Lest newcomers be duped: neither of these texts explicitly refer to the 10 commandment and, most importantly, each of these texts makes perfect sense even if the 10 commandments are no longer in forces.

expos4ever · May 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
But lately I've been swayed by @expos4ever's suggestion that heaven and Earth passing away is a kind of idiom (my words) for a great upheaval.

Appreciate the comment, but I believe that what I am saying is complementary to what Clare is saying - I do not see this as "either / or" sitch.

Clare73 · May 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes. I was about to add, but you beat me to it...

I used to see it the way you are describing, and as I said, I still see it as a possibility.

But lately I've been swayed by @expos4ever's suggestion that
heaven and Earth passing away is a kind of idiom (my words) for a great upheaval.

We know there will be a new heaven and earth.

I'm thinking the cataclysmic event will be burning the hell off earth, to make it the home of righteousness
(2 Peter 3:10-13).

Either way, though, the result is the same: the law ended at the cross.

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

expos4ever said:
Appreciate the comment, but I believe that what I am saying is complementary to what Clare is saying - I do not see this as "either / or" sitch.

Really? I think if it's an idiom then it's not to be taken literally. Though I agree with the possibility that it is to be taken literally and represents the time frame during which all will be accomplished.

But the net result, all is accomplished and we don't have to keep the law, is the same imo.

Leaf473 · May 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
We know there will be a new heaven and earth.

I'm thinking the cataclysmic event will be burning the hell off earth, to make it the home of righteousness
(2 Peter 3:10-13).

Certainly a possibility. I think the cataclysmic event is the cross and the ushering in of the New Covenant. But again either way, the net result is the same.

Clare73 · May 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Certainly a possibility. I think the cataclysmic event is the cross and the ushering in of the New Covenant. But again either way, the net result is the same.

I'm not thinking the earth this side of eternity will ever be the home of righteousness.

Akita Suggagaki · May 1, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
3. Gods’ 4th commandment does not point forwards to things to come.

Such as "The Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:1–8, Mark 2:23–28 and Luke 6:1–5) who bids us to come to him for rest (Matthew 11:28). It is hard not to see fulfillment there.

LoveGodsWord · May 1, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
Such as "The Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:1–8, Mark 2:23–28 and Luke 6:1–5) who bids us to come to him for rest (Matthew 11:28). It is hard not to see fulfillment there.

Hi AS, nice to see you again. Yes agreed, Jesus is indeed the Lord of the Sabbath. That is he has authority over the Sabbath because he is the creator of the Sabbath and all things in Heaven and earth *John 1:1-4; 14. He does indeed bid us come to rest in Him from sin and bids us to follow him because he is our Saviour from sin. Think it through though AS. How can God's Sabbath be a shadow law of anything when it points backwards as a "memorial" (Remember the Sabbath day - Exodus 20:8) to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:11 and not forward to things to come? There was no sin and no plan of salvation given to mankind because there was no sin and no "shadow laws" that point forward to the coming of a Savior from sin because there was no sin *Genesis 2:1-3? There was only sinless Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 who were without sin and in no need of shadow laws of things to come pointing forward to the promised Savior from sin because the Sabbath was made when mankind was sinless. The Mosaic "shadow laws" were only given after the fall (sin) of mankind not before sin when the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore it is impossible for Gods' Sabbath to be a shadow law of anything because it points backwards and not forwards to the promised Saviour from sin. Your mixing up God's Mosaic "shadow laws" given after the fall of mankind with God's eternal laws that in the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

Leaf473 · May 2, 2022

I think something could point both backwards and forwards. Like the animal sacrifices point backwards to Adam and Eve not wanting to be naked before God. So God kills animals and uses their skins to clothe them.

Then of course, they also point forward to the cross.

SabbathBlessings · May 2, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I think something could point both backwards and forwards. Like the animal sacrifices point backwards to Adam and Eve not wanting to be naked before God. So God kills animals and uses their skins to clothe them.

Then of course, they also point forward to the cross.

Animal sacrifices started when sin entered this world, when the devil took dominion. Jesus died for the penalty of sin (death) so He could give external life through His blood for the forgives and sanctification of sin at the cross. His blood took the place of having to offer animals sacrifices Hebrews 10, Colossians 2:14 as the blood of animals is not perfect, but the blood of Jesus is. What Jesus did not do was sacrifice Himself so we could continue in sin freely- I can imagine how much hurt this causes Him after His great sacrifice. This popular false teaching is what the devil wants us to believe. No law equals no sin equals no need for God’s grace and no need for a Savior.= everyone is lost. The perfect plan of deceit that has fooled the majority of people.

Jesus died so we could be forgiven when we repent. True repentance means you’re truly sorry for your sin and turn from it to walk in obedience to God’s law. God gives us the Spirit to do this John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32

There is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments ended with Jesus at the cross. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 which doesn’t reconcile with this false teaching that we are free to sin (break the law). 1 John 3:4

There is plenty of scripture showing we should keep the Ten Commandments and the remnant (small amount of the original) of Christs true Church will keep doing so when Jesus comes Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, the question is are we going to believe the Words of Jesus or the words of man who lead people to break God’s commandments and worship in vain according to Jesus. Matthew 15:3-9, Mark 7:6-8

Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Leaf473 · May 2, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Animal sacrifices started when sin entered this world, when the devil took dominion.

Okay... Then when Moses gets more detailed instructions about animal sacrifices, they are pointing backwards to that original situation.

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus died for the penalty of sin (death) so He could give external life through His blood for the forgives and sanctification of sin at the cross.

And then the sacrifices at Moses' time are also pointing forward to the cross.

I think the same law, then, can point both backwards and forwards.

SabbathBlessings said:
His blood took the place of having to offer animals sacrifices Hebrews 10, Colossians 2:14 as the blood of animals is not perfect, but the blood of Jesus is. What Jesus did not do was sacrifice Himself so we could continue in sin freely- I can imagine how much hurt this causes Him after His great sacrifice. This popular false teaching is what the devil wants us to believe. No law equals no sin equals no need for God’s grace and no need for a Savior. The perfect plan of deceit that has fooled the majority of people.

Jesus died so we could be forgiven when we repent. True repentance means your truly sorry for your sin and turn from it to walk in obedience to God’s law. God gives us the Spirit to do this John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32

There is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments ended with Jesus at the cross. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 which doesn’t reconcile with this false teaching that we are free to sin (break the law). 1 John 3:4

There is plenty of scripture showing we should keep the Ten Commandments and the remnant (small amount of the original) of Christs true Church will keep doing so when Jesus comes Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, the question is are we going to believe the Words of Jesus or the words of man who lead people to break God’s commandments and worship in vain according to Jesus. Matthew 15:3-9, Mark 7:6-8

Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward iswith Me, to give to every one according to his work.13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

What you say sounds good from a distance. I remember one time hearing some live music coming from several blocks away. I walked over and found that one of the local churches was putting on an outdoor service at the community center.

Up close, it turns out that the electric piano was kind of distorted, too loud for the amplifier. And the drums weren't always in sync with the piano. But it sounded good from a distance!

So getting up close to the theology you present, we see that there are other laws. What are those other laws?

Suppose the answer is to keep the 10 to the letter and the Holy Spirit will show you the rest. But up close, we see that different people who keep the 10 to the letter have different sets of other laws.

SabbathBlessings · May 2, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay... Then when Moses gets more detailed instructions about animal sacrifices, they are pointing backwards to that original situation.

And then the sacrifices at Moses' time are also pointing forward to the cross.

I think the same law, then, can point both backwards and forwards.

What you say sounds good from a distance. I remember one time hearing some live music coming from several blocks away. I walked over and found that one of the local churches was putting on an outdoor service at the community center.

Up close, it turns out that the electric piano was kind of distorted, too loud for the amplifier. And the drums weren't always in sync with the piano. But it sounded good from a distance!

So getting up close to the theology you present, we see that there are other laws. What are those other laws?

Suppose the answer is to keep the 10 to the letter and the Holy Spirit will show you the rest. But up close, we see that different people who keep the 10 to the letter have different sets of other laws.

We all have free will and it is our free will to believe our opinions are equal to the clear Word of God, I personally wouldn’t dismiss the many warnings of the scriptures. We are told the Second Coming of Jesus will be much like the days of Noah. I can see the parallels, but some should study this so one can enter the ark before the door is closed forever.

There is an excellent documentary on Amazon- The Days of Noah and is a 4 part series, for those interested.

God bless

Leaf473 · May 2, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
We all have free will and it is our free will to believe our opinions are equal to the clear Word of God, I personally wouldn’t dismiss the many warnings of the scriptures. We are told the Second Coming of Jesus will be much like the days of Noah. I can see the parallels, but some should study this so one can enter the ark before the door is closed forever.

There is an excellent documentary on Amazon- The Days of Noah and is a 4 part series, for those interested.

God bless

Absolutely, we don't want "to believe our opinions are equal to the clear Word of God", nor "dismiss the many warnings of the scriptures".

If you change your mind and decide you would like to talk about the scriptures where the other laws are found, I'm interested!

expos4ever · May 2, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Think it through though AS. How can God's Sabbath be a shadow law of anything when it points backwards as a "memorial" (Remember the Sabbath day - Exodus 20:8) to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:11 and not forward to things to come?

How do you know it does not also point forward?

When Jesus says "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest", it seems pretty clear to me that He is declaring that He is "the new Sabbath".

You, I believe, are forced to say that we are "reading this connection in". Well, I politely suggest, this is another case of you guys having to make coincidences out of things that, to me anyway, seem like anything but coincidences. To wit:

1. When Jesus draws uses "end of the world" language to define when the Law will end, He is drawing on clear Jewish tradition (Biblical and extra-Bibical) of using such language metaphorically to refer to events that happen well before the "end of the world". You have to believe this is a coincidence.

2. When Jesus says the Law will come to an end "when all is accomplished" and then His last words are "it is finished", you have to believe, again, that this is a coincidence.

3. When Jesus says that He is the place we come to rest, you have to believe it is a coincidence that this has echoes of the Sabbath that suggests that, yes, He is the new Sabbath.

And then there is the matter that a solid case can be made that Jesus did even obey the Sabbath in the first place. More on this shortly.

Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

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