Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[Cassian]

So Adam didn't fall?

I stated clearly that he did.

I know that the NT teaches that the elect will be saved, they will not fall away (Ro 8:29-30), they will be glorified.

Rom 8:29-30 does not even address whether an elect can or cannot fall.

I dunno'. . .Ro 8:29-30 seems pretty clear to me.

Obviously it does not seem clear to you.

 

[Cassian]

Woah! I nearly fell off my chair when I read what I bolded in your statement. It seems you have no idea what we have been given that Adam never got.

Honestly, I'm lost for words and I have to say, that doesn't happen very often.

Well, spell it out.

 

[Cassian]

Just so you know, your two examples are warnings. Not actual examples of people who changed back. None of your many more are either. Been down that road with others who thought so too.

So, a believer is locked in to eternal life. If these are just warnings, why the warning. Seems nonsensical. How does not being thrown in with unbelievers or one sent to a place where there is gnashing of teeth, not mean hell?
You greatly misunderstand scripture then.

 

[Hawkins]

This issue was raised in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to as I went on holidays and it was off topic so thought I would deal with it here and see what you all have to say for yourselves.
I say he didn't as eternal life is imputed to our spirit and if Adam had eternal life he could not have died spiritually. It's also the reason we don't die even though we sin. You can't perish (spiritually) and have eternal life at the same time.

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

What say you?

Technical it's a yes. There is no death inside God's dwelling realm. Eden was inside God's realm. Only since Adam sinned that he's driven out of Eden as enforced by Law that he and humans ever since do not live inside God's realm. Death is a curse to them, while the place they live is under the deep influence of Satan who is said to be the god of this world. Literally a world without God will evnetually fall to the hands of those most powerful and most evil beings such as Satan.

Romans 5:12 (NIV):
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

 

[Cassian]

The prodigal son did not lose salvation. He lost the benefits that accompany salvation. Benefits to have if one remains faithful.

So we can be unfaithful and still be saved. Even though scripture says he was lost. Here the words of Jesus of the Tree and branches, John 15:4-6
Also, IF one abides he will bear fruit. Meaning that some/many will not abide and will be burned.
If one already has salvation, what salvation is being inherited by the faithful in I Pet 1:3-5?

He began to walk after the desires of his flesh and his life became miserable. He then returned to his father ( doing the father's will) and was instantly accepted, and not rejected by the father for having disobeyed his father's will.

Like Peter did. He denied the Lord three times. But, Peter never was forsaken by the Lord for what he had done, and was readily accepted back when Peter returned to following Jesus.

Precisely, forgiveness in each case. I can assure you if one does not confess ones sins and repent, one will not attain eternal life. Every sin we do is a denial of our faith. Since faith is the active word, then when one sins and keeps sinning without repentance will not have eternal life. An unbeliever is in the same position, so why not give eternal life to them as well. The Prodigal Son was lost, not just out of fellowship. You have the same thing with the Lost Sheep. Why is there even a lost sheep if one already has salvation. The Holy Spirit does not give up easily, and seeks to gain a lost back.

 

[Clare73]

No, it just puts me in disagreement with you.

Nothing new here. . .my Biblical demonstrations not addressed,
only denial of simple grammatical construction of Jas 2:26, "The body without the spirit is dead,"
for the sake of your contra-NT doctrine.

If we can't agree on simple grammatical construction, we have no basis for discussion.

 

[Clare73]

Rom 8:29-30 does not even address whether an elect can or cannot fall.

And "No precipitation today," does not even address whether it will or will not rain today.

Obviously it does not seem clear to you.

Is grammar clear to you?

The elect are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. They will be called. . .will be glorified (Ro 8:29-30).
Can the elect fall away and, therefore, fail to be glorified?

Not according to the plain text. . .not if "predestined" means anything.

 

[Cassian]

And "No precipitation today," does not even address whether it will or will not rain today.

Is grammar clear to you?

The elect are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. They will be called. . .will be glorified (Ro 8:29-30).
Can the elect fall away and, therefore, fail to be glorified?

Not according to the plain text. . .not if "predestined" means anything.

What was predestined is that a believer will be conformed to His image. The believer is not predestined. He can stop being conformed at time in his life. They will be called, all men are being called, but believers are those that responded. If one is faithful they will be glorified.
It is not addressing in these verses if a believer falls or does not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What was predestined is that a believer will be conformed to His image. The believer is not predestined. He can stop being conformed at time in his life. They will be called, all men are being called, but believers are those that responded. If one is faithful they will be glorified.
It is not addressing in these verses if a believer falls or does not.

Every believer IS predestined. I would dearly love to see you explain logically how all things are not predestined to happen precisely as they do. And don't waste time with describing freewill. Even if freewill is true, it cannot escape causation by first cause (God).

But @Clare73 is not saying we are NOT predestined to being conformed, nor (in another reference) predestined to good works that God prepared ahead, nor many other things.

Can you say we are not predestined here? —From Ephesians 1

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."


NOTHING HAPPENS BY CHANCE

 

[GenemZ]

So we can be unfaithful and still be saved.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at King Saul! He wanted to murder David whom he was sinfully jealous of. King Saul risked the lives of his soldiers in trying to hunt down David. Then? King Saul stooped so low, he sought out a witch for guidance because God had withdrawn His leading of Saul.

Anyone in their right mind would say King Saul was terribly unfaithful....

But, he remained saved.

You have no idea how every sin on the Cross means "every sin" was paid for.

What sends people to hell is not their sins. Its their refusal to obey God and to *believe.*

 

[Clare73]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at King Saul! He wanted to murder David whom he was sinfully jealous of. King Saul risked the lives of his soldiers in trying to hunt down David. Then? King Saul stooped so low, he sought out a witch for guidance because God had withdrawn His leading of Saul.

Anyone in their right mind would say King Saul was terribly unfaithful....

But, he was saved.

The Holy Spirit was taken from him, he committed suicide (despair, not faith). . .not saved.

 

[Cassian]

Every believer IS predestined. I would dearly love to see you explain logically how all things are not predestined to happen precisely as they do. And don't waste time with describing freewill. Even if freewill is true, it cannot escape causation by first cause (God).

There is a lot that is not predestined. One thing for sure has never been predestined is who will believe. Your use of "first cause" and Calvin's other words such as immediate and secondary causes is a philosophical way he tries to make his predestination theory viable.
Which is one of the reasons the Church has declared Calvinism heretical back in 1672.

But @Clare73 is not saying we are NOT predestined to being conformed, nor (in another reference) predestined to good works that God prepared ahead, nor many other things.

Can you say we are not predestined here? —From Ephesians 1

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."


NOTHING HAPPENS BY CHANCE

A believer becomes an elect by faith. A believer is a chosen one that as an elect God (the Holy Spirit) will work with one to attain the conforming. None of this happens until one is IN CHRIST.

 

[Cassian]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at King Saul! He wanted to murder David whom he was sinfully jealous of. King Saul risked the lives of his soldiers in trying to hunt down David. Then? King Saul stooped so low, he sought out a witch for guidance because God had withdrawn His leading of Saul.

Anyone in their right mind would say King Saul was terribly unfaithful....

But, he remained saved.

You have no idea how every sin on the Cross means "every sin" was paid for.

What sends people to hell is not their sins. Its their refusal to obey God and to *believe.*

Saul was saved, that is news to me. When I read it how can one be saved when God departed from Him.

1 Sam. 28:16 ff
Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?

 

[Clare73]

What was predestined is that a believer will be conformed to His image. The believer is not predestined. He can stop being conformed at time in his life. They will be called, all men are being called, but believers are those that responded. If one is faithful they will be glorified.
It is not addressing in these verses if a believer falls or does not.

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (divine foreknowledge)

Divine foreknowledge is God knowing in advance what he is going to do, because from before the foundations of the world, he has decreed that he shall do it.

For those whom God foreknew from before the foundations of the world; i.e., those whom God has decreed shall be glorified (Ro 8:29-30), he therefore predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" (Ro 8:29), etc., etc. . .to glorification.

Predestination is about the pre-(determined) destination of particular persons whom God foreknew; i.e., the particular persons whose destiny he has decreed from before the foundations of the world, based on nothing but his sovereign pleasure, choice and decree,
just as it was with Jacob (Ro 9:11-12), and just as it is in the new birth, where the sovereign action of the Holy Spirit is an unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).

Predestination is not about a group which meets certain specifications, thereby qualifying for a pre-determined destiny for those who meet those qualifications.

 

[sawdust]

Well, spell it out.

That would take up too many posts to do it justice but if you Google "things we receive at the moment of salvation" you will see what we have been given. Different pastors vary the number and of course some things weren't necessary pre-fall but even so, Adam still was not given things we have post-fall. Some examples are ....
1. The mind of Christ
2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. Indwelling Spirit
4. Eternal life
5. to rule with Christ (distinct from being ruled over by Christ)

... and many other assets.

 

[sawdust]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 6:23​

​

​

Spiritual death was solved simply by regeneration. Born again. The Holy Spirit begets our human spirit. Body, soul, and spirit.

But, Eternal life? God goes beyond simple regeneration in our case! We are not simply born again as known to OT believers before the Church age began.

Eternal life is God not simply providing regeneration. He is not only providing our human spirit.
Eternal life is entering us into a new realm. Something new and beyond previous regeneration.
Into a divine realm that regenerated people of the past before the church age never knew.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; ​

behold, all things have become new. " 2 Cor 5:17​

​

"he is a new creation."​

The Greek of 'new creation' speaks of a new thing. Something that never existed before!
No OT believer was a new creation in Christ!

OT saints were regenerated when they believed.
They were born again! But, they were not given eternal life! Only everlasting life.

Eternal life is given only to the new creation in Christ!

For we have become the permanent temple of the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit is God! Therefore, God = Eternal life!

We (the Church) have been given eternal life!

The Bride of Christ has been given God to be living through them, which we will experience in a phenomenal way after the Resurrection!
Its beyond what we can now dream or imagine.

​

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears this say, ​

“Come!” Let whoever is thirsty come; whoever wishes may have the water​

of life as a free gift." Rev 22:17​

See that? What we will be saying is what the Spirit is saying!

In a sense? To all those outside of the church age? Who are not called to be the Bride of Christ?
How will we the church be seen to them? As... "Mrs. Christ!"

We have been elevated to a position in Christ that is far beyond mere regeneration.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23​

God does not simply save us to being regenerated. In the Church age?
He has included a special gift just for His Bride! Eternal life!

As He lives, so shall we be under Him.

​

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, ​

his body, and is himself its Savior." Ephesians 5:23​

grace and peace .........

I've been giving your post some thought and it made me realise there is another reason Adam could not have had eternal life. Bear with my thinking here for I am still processing but ....

The Church is to be the Bride of Christ. In giving us eternal life, God the Son has effectively pledged His life to us as a Husband and to withdraw that life would be to effectively hand us a notice of divorce.

We know God allowed for divorce but His reasoning was because we are stubborn and a recalcitrant mob, in other words because we are sinners. For anyone to say God would withdraw eternal life is to effectively say He is hardhearted.

Matthew 19:8
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

 

[sawdust]

Nothing new here. . .

You are in disagreement with "The body without the spirit is dead," (Jas 2:26), the grammatical construction of which you deny for the sake of your contra-NT doctrine.

If we can't agree on simple grammatical construction, we have no basis for discussion.

Suits me just don't start up again when I repeat the scripture that says "Spirit gives birth to spirit" actually means the Spirit gives birth to spirit and doesn't mean being given a gift.

 

[sawdust]

The Holy Spirit was taken from him, he committed suicide (despair, not faith). . .not saved.

1 Samuel 28:19
Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

I believe Samuel was residing on the Paradise side of Sheol at the time.

I guess there's just no accounting for the grace and mercy of the Lord God.

 

[sawdust]

I can assure you if one does not confess ones sins and repent, one will not attain eternal life.

Ugh!!! no-one "attains" eternal life, it is a gift, freely given.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are a believer you are in Christ and have eternal life period. Where Christians fail is working that life out in their experience but God never rescinds His gift of eternal life.

The irony in working out ones salvation is to not work but to rest in the work of Christ and allow Him to transfer what He attained to us.

 

[GenemZ]

The Holy Spirit was taken from him, he committed suicide (despair, not faith). . .not saved.

Yes, suicide. But, Samuel would say you are misinformed.......
That is.. unless Samuel was not saved, and Saul was going to be with him the next day not in Abraham's side...

God is justice. God is love. God can not change to appease human emotions. What God declares righteous in salvation, remains.