Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[Clare73]

No mention of spirit there anywhere. Show us where?

His body was dead and buried. . .so what was conscious?

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. ​

The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked ​

up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:22-23​

Not their spirit. That speaks of their souls that can be seen when entered into the realm they were in.

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between soul and spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities.
It presents body and soul as capable of separation, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

In light of that difficulty, I see no NT warrant for your separation of soul and spirit in the above.

Rev 6:9-10 speaks of souls of martyred believers who will be both seen and heard. Martyred during the Tribulation.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain ​

because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a ​

loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of ​

the earth and avenge our blood?”​

Once we leave this realm of the material world? Souls of those who died can be seen and heard without bodies

There is no NT warrant for the visibility/materiality of the soul.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain ​

because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a ​

loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of ​

the earth and avenge our blood?”​

There is much to learn before we appear before Him to be evaluated.

Prophecy is given in riddles (Nu 12:8), not clearly and, therefore, is subject to more than one interpretation.
I do no take my doctrine from prophetic riddles.

 

[sawdust]

Adam was created eternal and was in union/relationship with God. Man was created to be in union with God ever conforming more to His likeness.
We know Adam was neither mortal or immortal. Depending on man's free will these could result. Based on what we know of the NT and understand of ones relationship with Christ by/through faith. By believing we have eternal life, but it is conditional of enduring, continuing, remaining faithful. Many a believer has lost faith through sin, we know that one loses eternal life (relationship with God/Christ. It can be restored by repentance. So one could surmise that Adam also had eternal life and through sin lost it. Scripture never says he repented but the Church believes he did and would have been restored to eternal life.

You can't create something eternal. To be eternal is to have no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal. He has decided to share His life with the Church as a gift.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus presented an immortal human spirit in the unredeemed rich man (Lk 16:22-23), whose human immortal spirit was in hell.

That was his soul in Hades not his spirit. We are souls, angels are spirits in essence

 

[Clare73]

That was his soul in Hades not his spirit.

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between soul and spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities.
It presents body and soul as capable of separation, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

In light of that difficulty, I see no NT warrant for your separation of soul and spirit in the above.

We are souls, angels are spirits in essence

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents humans as having both.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You can't create something eternal. To be eternal is to have no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal. He has decided to share His life with the Church as a gift.

If eternal means no beginning, then of course you are right. But we are in Christ. Our being is "in him". We are not in and of ourselves anything.

You will admit, I think, to the notion that the redeemed are given eternal life. THAT is "in him", it had no beginning even though he brings us into it.

 

[sawdust]

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between soul and spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities.
It presents body and soul as capable of separation, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

In light of that difficulty, I see no NT warrant for your separation of soul and spirit in the above.

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents humans as having both.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What is impossible for you is not impossible for the word of God.
What should be noted, it is not talking of the physical body when it refers to "joints and marrow", but rather to the connections and essences of both soul and the spirit. We lie to ourselves all the time to justify our cowardice and arrogance etc. The word rips those thoughts apart that come from wrong motives. One example of that verse at work is what we call "having an epiphany".

In light of that truth, I see no warrant for your non-division.

I never said they don't have both if they are regenerated but in essence we are referred to as souls while angels are referred to as spirits. It's our soul God created in His image and likeness.

However all this is merely a distraction to the real issue. You have failed to explain how Adam could die spiritually if he had eternal life for John said those who have eternal life won't die. (Jn.3:15) So until such time as you can explain why God would take back His gift of eternal life from Adam because of sin yet not take it back from us because of sin, you have one rule for Adam and another for us.

ps. I should add assuming you are right about spiritual death being the loss of eternal life. I think you're wrong but I am at least willing to think through your argument.

 

[sawdust]

If eternal means no beginning, then of course you are right. But we are in Christ. Our being is "in him". We are not in and of ourselves anything.

You will admit, I think, to the notion that the redeemed are given eternal life. THAT is "in him", it had no beginning even though he brings us into it.

The receipt of that life had a beginning for us but I fail to see your point.

Maybe I need to explain the background of this thread's OP more but I didn't want it to get bogged down.

As far as I am concerned it's real simple. It's just 1+1=2

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

We have eternal life right? Therefore we can't perish. It is impossible for us to die spiritually even though we sin.

If having eternal life prevents you from dying, then Adam could not have had eternal life because he died spiritually.

 

[GenemZ]

His body was dead and buried. . .so what was conscious?

The NT (Heb 4:12) presents the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between soul and spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities.
It presents body and soul as capable of separation, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

In light of that difficulty, I see no NT warrant for your separation of soul and spirit in the above.

There is no NT warrant for the visibility/materiality of the soul.

Prophecy is given in riddles (Nu 12:8), not clearly and, therefore, is subject to more than one interpretation.
I do no take my doctrine from prophetic riddles.

You are imposing definitions to what the passage does not express.

I really see no need to debate you on this any longer. For who am I to argue against a dogmatic opinion?

 

[Cassian]

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

We have eternal life right? Therefore we can't perish. It is impossible for us to die spiritually even though we sin.

If having eternal life prevents you from dying, then Adam could not have had eternal life because he died spiritually.

The NT is quite clear that a believer can lose eternal life. If eternal life is a relationship/fellowship/union/communion with God a believer can fall from that union by losing faith. Faith/belief is how we received eternal life. Your quote of John 3:15 is conditional by use of the word "should".
We also know that unbelievers will also have an eternal existence but the term eternal life is never used to denote their status. Their status is lack of spiritual union/fellowship/relationship/communion (eternal life) with God for an eternity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The NT is quite clear that a believer can lose eternal life. If eternal life is a relationship/fellowship/union/communion with God a believer can fall from that union by losing faith. Faith/belief is how we received eternal life. Your quote of John 3:15 is conditional by use of the word "should".
We also know that unbelievers will also have an eternal existence but the term eternal life is never used to denote their status. Their status is lack of spiritual union/fellowship/relationship/communion (eternal life) with God for an eternity.

Those whom God has chosen for eternal life will surely 'be there' —so, I ask, "what do you mean by believer?"

There are [at least] two kinds of believers. "The demons also believe, and tremble". The demons are certainly not in possession of a salvific belief.

A note concerning the subjunctive, "should": It does not question actuality, but denotes purpose. In some translations it even says, "shall", and not "should".

 

[Cassian]

Those whom God has chosen for eternal life will surely 'be there' —so, I ask, "what do you mean by believer?"

Anyone who believes/repents and is baptized into His Kingdom to join in a personal communion with Him.

There are [at least] two kinds of believers. "The demons also believe, and tremble". The demons are certainly not in possession of a salvific belief.

A note concerning the subjunctive, "should": It does not question actuality, but denotes purpose. In some translations it even says, "shall", and not "should".

We, as believers, possess eternal life as long as one endures to the end. Man has a free will and lives in a fallen world with a fallen nature where the devil is constantly seeking to pull a believer away from God. Sadly, many lose faith in Christ and thus lose eternal life.
A good example of these, among many, is the parable of the sower. It is recorded in the synoptic Gospels and is one of two parables that Jesus actually explains. The middle two examples are believers, members of His kingdom who began their journey with Christ but let other things snuff our their faith. We have the unfaithful servant of Luke 12:42-46.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Anyone who believes/repents and is baptized into His Kingdom to join in a personal communion with Him.

We, as believers, possess eternal life as long as one endures to the end. Man has a free will and lives in a fallen world with a fallen nature where the devil is constantly seeking to pull a believer away from God. Sadly, many lose faith in Christ and thus lose eternal life.
A good example of these, among many, is the parable of the sower. It is recorded in the synoptic Gospels and is one of two parables that Jesus actually explains. The middle two examples are believers, members of His kingdom who began their journey with Christ but let other things snuff our their faith. We have the unfaithful servant of Luke 12:42-46.

Do any believe, whom God had chosen for eternal life, that end up in hell?

 

[Clare73]

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
What is impossible for you is not impossible for the word of God.

What should be noted, it is not talking of the physical body when it refers to "joints and marrow", but rather to the connections and essences of both soul and the spirit. We lie to ourselves all the time to justify our cowardice and arrogance etc. The word rips those thoughts apart that come from wrong motives. One example of that verse at work is what we call "having an epiphany".
In light of that truth, I see no warrant for your non-division.

1) Feel free to accurately divide when man is consistently constituted with soul and spirit as distinct from one another:
man is constituted of two things: body and soul (Mt 6:25, Mt 10:28, Lk 12:20, Ac 20:10). . .or
man is constituted of two things: body and spirit (Lk 8:55, 1 Co 5:3, 1 Co 7:34, Jas 2:26).

2) Feel free to accurately divide which emotion is consistently seated in the soul or spirit as distinct from one another:
the soul is the seat of emotion (Mt 26:38, Ps 42:1, Ps 35:9). . .or
the spirit is the seat of emotion (Jn 13:21, 1Kgs 21:5, Lk 1:47).

I never said they don't have both if they are regenerated but in essence we are referred to as souls while angels are referred to as spirits. It's our soul God created in His image and likeness.

Because immaterial souls animate physical life, and immaterial immortal spirits animate spirit life (Lk 8:55, 1Co 5:3, 1 Co 7:34, Jas 2:26), while the immortal human spirit animates the human soul.

However all this is merely a distraction to the real issue. You have failed to explain how Adam could die spiritually if he had eternal life for John said those who have eternal life won't die. (Jn.3:15). So until such time as you can explain why God would take back His gift of eternal life from Adam because of sin yet not take it back from us because of sin, you have one rule for Adam and another for us.

This is your lucky day. . .

In many areas, the order of life pre-fall (Ge 2:17) is not the order of life post-fall (Jn 3:15).
You will note that the post-fall [eternal life is permanent] restoration is to a condition ever so superior to that of the pre-fall [eternal life was not permanent, Ge 2:17 - "Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically)."] Spritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit itself, but withdrawal of God's divine eternal life imparted to the human spirit.
We see the same thing in post-fall salvation, where the restoration includes sharing in Jesus' own personal eternal inheritance which is nowhere presented in the pre-fall order.

ps. I should add assuming you are right about spiritual death being the loss of eternal life. I think you're wrong but I am at least willing to think through your argument.

Agreed. . .that is not common.

Keeping in mind, it is loss of eternal life that was imparted to the immortal human spirit, it is not loss of the life of the immortal spirit itself.

 

[GenemZ]

The NT is quite clear that a believer can lose eternal life.

Then give us chapter and verse and allow us to see what you think is the case.

 

[Cassian]

Do any believe, whom God had chosen for eternal life, that end up in hell?

God does not choose who will believe. He desires all men believe so much so that He is calling all men to repentance. Man needs to choose between life and death. If life then he must remain faithful, endure to the end, bear fruit, become conformed to His Likeness. He surely can choose to change back to the status of unbeliever. I gave you two examples. If you need more scripture has many more.

 

[sawdust]

The NT is quite clear that a believer can lose eternal life. If eternal life is a relationship/fellowship/union/communion with God a believer can fall from that union by losing faith. Faith/belief is how we received eternal life. Your quote of John 3:15 is conditional by use of the word "should".
We also know that unbelievers will also have an eternal existence but the term eternal life is never used to denote their status. Their status is lack of spiritual union/fellowship/relationship/communion (eternal life) with God for an eternity.

I don't want this thread to turn into an OSAS versus Non-OSAS so I won't comment further except to say the NT makes it quite clear you cannot lose your salvation. There is nothing in creation that can undo what God has done in the believer. I suggest you check out those things that happen by grace the moment a person believes. Being given eternal life is but one thing.

 

[sawdust]

In many areas, the order of life pre-fall (Ge 2:17) is not the order of life post-fall (Jn 3:15).
You will note that the post-fall (eternal life is permanent) restoration is to a condition ever so superior to that of the pre-fall (eternal life was not permanent).
We see the same thing in salvation, where the restoration includes sharing in Jesus' own personal eternal inheritance.

Gen.2:17 says nothing about having eternal life. You are assuming Adam had eternal life. We don't see the same thing in salvation (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). The Church was unheard of prior to the Cross and what we have been given is far superior to what was promised any OT saint. For example, Israel was promised a Messiah to rule over them. We (the Church) have been made a bride to rule with her Husband the Lord Jesus Christ. Not all believers inherit the same promises.

 

[Cassian]

Then give us chapter and verse and allow us to see what you think is the case.

I already gave two examples. You have several other parables, Prodigal son was lost/dead and repented and returned to the Father, The 10 Virgins, Parable of the tree and the fruitless branches being cut off and burned. There are more.

 

[Cassian]

I don't want this thread to turn into an OSAS versus Non-OSAS so I won't comment further except to say the NT makes it quite clear you cannot lose your salvation. There is nothing in creation that can undo what God has done in the believer. I suggest you check out those things that happen by grace the moment a person believes. Being given eternal life is but one thing.

I don't either, but you will never arrive at any understanding of the thread. It would be absurd to think that Adam living in a relationship with God far closer and better than we do still fell.
God wants man to love Him unconditionally as He loves us. He gave Adam free will to choose to love or not to love. Christ came to save mankind from the fall that we inherited from Adam. We still have free will, but we live in a fallen world with a fallen human nature, and you think man is immune from falling. Besides OSAS is a novel theory that came through Calvin only 400 years ago The two sides have been arguing for the same amount of time and no solution will ever be found. The historical Church has never had an issue with man losing faith.

 

[sawdust]

Because immaterial souls animate physical life, and immaterial immortal spirits animate spirit life (Lk 8:55, 1Co 5:3, 1 Co 7:34, Jas 2:26), while the immortal human spirit animates the human soul.

Those versus you quote are not only a terrible interpretation for your argument, they even defy your argument.

You say the soul animates physical life then quote Lk.8:55 where it is the return of the girls spirit by which she arises physically.

Do you think Paul's actual spirit was in the midst of the Corinthians? The verse you quote has nothing to do with the function of soul and spirit.

The Cor.7 passage actually does apply but not as you think. The spirit is the receiver of spiritual truths which in turn feeds the soul which then controls the body. At least, that is how God designed things to work. This is why the "soulish" man (1Cor.2:14) cannot comprehend spiritual truths for he has no spirit to discern what the Holy Spirit says ergo he cannot hide the word of God in his heart (seat of thought/values in the soul) (ps.119:11) to prevent one from sinning.

As for the James passage, context is everything. James is talking about one's spiritual life, not physical life and death. If you (the body) had no spirit you would be dead spiritually. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Men are born without a human spirit which is why they are dead spiritually.

I don't think you have given anywhere near enough thought to this.