Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[Clare73]

Confession is between you and the Lord. You don't need to tell us you're good at being shonky.

I don't need to, but I choose too. . .last I heard, it's still a free country. . .enjoy the freedom while you can.

 

[Clare73]

I don't know, that's why I asked the question. You said:

"flesh gives birth to fleshly life (human life within the natural body),"

Human life isn't just our body, so how am I suppose to understand your statement above?

Okay. . .

1) there's divine life, spirit (angel) life, and physical (human, animal and plant) life.
"Human" was to distinguish which one of the five.

2) Human beings are composed of body (physical), soul and spirit (spirit).
Physical produces physical (parents produce physical body).
Spirit (God) produces spirit (the soul and immortal human spirit are from God, the human spirit being without divine eternal life at birth).

 

[sawdust]

You didn't say anything in post #162 @Clare73 . Are you not able to say something or not willing or just forget?

 

[sawdust]

I don't need to, but I choose too. . .last I heard, it's still a free country. . .enjoy the freedom while you can.

You do know what the term shonky means don't you? It doesn't bother me if you want to declare to the world how good you are at being bad. In fact, if everyone knows it will save them a lot of time for they won't need to bother reading or responding to any of your posts knowing all you say is of poor quality.

 

[sawdust]

Does God not use the unredeemed to accomplish his purposes?

And on what authoritative basis have you decided which you are?

Agreed. . .see post #125.

David repented. . .Saul did not. And when God did not respond to Saul, he left God and went to Satan (in the witch).

Are you saying Saul was never saved or are you saying he lost his salvation?

 

[Clare73]

You didn't say anything in post #162 @Clare73 . Are you not able to say something or not willing or just forget?

MIsfire. . .see post #162 now.

 

[Clare73]

Are you saying Saul was never saved or are you saying he lost his salvation?

He was never saved. . .his lack of repentance shows that.

 

[Clare73]

You do know what the term shonky means don't you?

Is shonky like honky?

It doesn't bother me if you want to declare to the world how good you are at being bad. In fact, if everyone knows it will save them a lot of time for they won't need to bother reading or responding to any of your posts knowing all you say is of poor quality.

(This is beneath you.)

I have no doubt they can determine quality for themselves.

 

[GenemZ]

Does God not use the unredeemed to accomplish his purposes?

Not in the way you are trying to force a square peg in the hole you got yourself into....

God does not guide the unbeliever as King Saul had been.

As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came
powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other,
“What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”

1 Samuel 10:9-11​

 

[Cassian]

Agreed. . .God does not need to do anything.
It's not about what he needs to do, it's about what he has sovereignly willed to do.

We know precisely the opposite from Ro 8:29-30, where "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" means believer/faith.

That is fallen human reasoning set against the plain word of God in Ro 8:29-30:

Such glib assertions. So you disagree with, so far, 2000 years of the same understanding from the Apostles to now regarding predestination of believers. It was given by the Holy Spirit and preserved unchanged. You also disagree with scripture of I Tim 3:15 as well as II Pet 1:20. Why do you think that protestants have been protesting against each other for 500 years. They have gone from roughly four main reformers to literally thousand today. I would say the faulty human reasoning lies with you.

"For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. . .and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.". . .past tense. . .done deal. . .forever settled in heaven.

If you desire to believe that it is your choice. The only other person who had an idea on predestination earlier than Calvin was Augustine. However the Church did not accept his theory as scriptural. The RC developed some kind of hybrid predestination view in the 16 century to stop the flow of RC congregants to protestant denominations.

 

[The Righterzpen]

We're talking about eternal. . .they aren't the same thing.

I'm aware of that. How did you miss that in my posts?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not in the way you are trying to force a square peg in the hole you got yourself into....

God does not guide the unbeliever as King Saul had been.

As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came
powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other,
“What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”

1 Samuel 10:9-11​

What are you trying to imply with that reference?

Is there no difference between the Spirit of God 'coming upon' someone, and taking up residence within a person?

 

[GenemZ]

The body without the spirit is dead. (Jas 2:26)
That means if the Jews had no immortal human spirit at that time, they would be physically dead.

Please look...

Unbelievers are physically alive. But, they are spiritually dead.

Physically dead people can not dig a grave. Let alone, be present, or in charge, of a burial.

He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

Luke 9:59-60​

Why do some have such a hard time with this?

They are shown corrections.. and they act as if they can not be wrong.

How can anyone benefit from correction if that is the case?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

2 Tim 3:16​

 

[Clare73]

Not in the way you are trying to force a square peg in the hole you got yourself into....

God does not guide the unbeliever as King Saul had been.

Contraire. . .Ezra 1:2.

As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came
powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. ​

Not to rest and abide as upon Samuel, but to quickly leave him.

When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other,
“What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
1 Samuel 10:9-11​

No mention is made of his wisdom or virtue (1 Sa 9:2), only that he is a head taller than any of the others (1 Sa 9:2, 1 Sa 10:23),
a peculiar standing.
God made him a different person (1 Sa 10:6), but I note he was not made a new creature (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15), i.e., saved.
They wanted a king like the other nations (1 Sa 10:19) and God gave them a king like the other nations in Saul.
Saul turned away from God, was disobedient (1 Sa 15:10), was rejected by God (1 Sa 15:26), the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil (injurious) spirit from the Lord tormented him (1 Sa 16:14, 15, 16, 23).
Samuel dies (1 Sa 25:1), the Philisties gather against Israel (1 Sa 28:1), the Lord does not answer Saul's inquiries (1 Sa 28:6), Saul turns from God to Satan, in a witch (1 Sa 28:7).

Con't from post #125:

1 Sa 28:15 -- "God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you."
That's despair. . .Instead of admitting the justice of God in turning away from Saul, as does the repentant, Saul calls God unkind and abandons God, seeking advice elsewhere, which from a witch can only be Satan, for witches cannot compel the deceased righteous from Paradise, likewise seen in the despairing words to Saul, "the Lord has turned away from you and become your enemy."

While Satan speaks only of terror. . .God at the same time also opens a door of hope if one repents. Satan never gives hope. His response is deliberately intended to drive Saul to despair and suicide. Had it been truly Samuel, he would have told Saul to repent and make peace with God, to call David back from banishment so that he might find mercy with God.
Satan could foretell his death because God had turned Saul over to Satan for destruction, as in 1 Kgs 22:20-22.

Scripture sums it up in:
1 Chr 10:13-14: "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse."

 

[sawdust]

Is shonky like honky?

No which is why it seems you didn't understand what I meant. Never mind. Not the first time.

You are the one who owned being shonky. I simply put it out there as saying "being with Samuel" (meaning on the other side of an uncrossable cavern) is like what shonky real estate agents say when they use terms like "cosy" meaning you can't take a deep breath as the place is so small. or when they say "savour the peace and quiet", meaning it's so isolated you get lost trying to find it.

(This is beneath you.)

I was simply stating the obvious. If you are going to advertise you're good at being shonky then why should people bother with you? But it's obvious now you don't know what it means so it's all pretty pointless anyway.

 

[Clare73]

Please look...

Unbelievers are physically alive. But, they are spiritually dead.

Yes. . .I know this is confusing. . .but spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit itself,
rather it is withdrawal of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit at the fall of Adam.
We are born with immortal human spirits without God's divine eternal life imparted to them.
What Adam lost in his fall is re-imparted when one is born (again) from above (Jn 3:3).

Physically dead people can not dig a grave. Let alone, be present, or in charge, of a burial.

He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
Luke 9:59-60​

Let those who do not have God's divine eternal life imparted to their immortal human spirits go bury those who also do not.
Their immortal human spirits are without God's divine eternal life, but their immortal human spirits are not dead, for
"The body without the spirit is dead." (Jas 2:26)
There is no human life without one's immortal human spirit. . .with or without God's divine eternal life imparted to it.

Why do some have such a hard time with this?
They are shown corrections.. and they act as if they can not be wrong.

Which "corrections" are not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching; i.e., "The body without the spirit is dead." (Jas 2:26)
There is no human life without the immortal human spirit.

How can anyone benefit from correction if that is the case?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
2 Tim 3:16​

It must be in agreement with Scripture to be correction.

 

[sawdust]

Okay. . .

1) there's divine life, spirit (angel) life, and physical (human, animal and plant) life.
"Human" was to distinguish which one of the five.

2) Human beings are composed of body (physical), soul and spirit (spirit).
Physical produces physical (parents produce physical body).
Spirit (God) produces spirit (the soul and immortal human spirit are from God, the human spirit being without divine eternal life at birth).

Okay, that explains a lot.

Best to end our discussion now then as it would just end up back and forth again.

Have a nice day.

 

[GenemZ]

What are you trying to imply with that reference?

Is there no difference between the Spirit of God 'coming upon' someone, and taking up residence within a person?

OT saints had the Spirit placed upon them to fill them with enabling ability for feats their natural abilities could not achieve. Like Samson as a mighty warrior, and the people God called to build the tabernacle in the wilderness in the days of Moses.

The Spirit was not given to them to transform them into the image of Christ as the gift the church has been given.

OT saints did not have the indwelling Spirit taking up permanent residence inside a believer as to produce in faithful believers the following:

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18​

grace and peace ................................

 

[GenemZ]

Yes. . .I know this is confusing. . .but spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit itself,
rather it is withdrawal of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit at the fall of Adam.
We are born with immortal human spirits without God's divine eternal life imparted to them.
What Adam lost in his fall is re-imparted when one is born (again) from above (Jn 3:3).

I'm not going to follow you into those weeds.

 

[Clare73]

Such glib assertions. So you disagree with, so far, 2000 years of the same understanding from the Apostles to now regarding predestination of believers.

I disagree with anything and anyone who disagrees with Scripture.
The Greek definition of the word:
predestinate (proorizo) = pro (beforehand), horizo (to determine, mark out definitely) - to foreordain, to mark out beforehand, to determine before,
and the text of Ro 8:29-30 are unequivocal and clear.
My job is to believe them, not argue against them.

It was given by the Holy Spirit and preserved unchanged. You also disagree with scripture of I Tim 3:15 as well as II Pet 1:20.

I have no disagreement with either.

Why do you think that protestants have been protesting against each other for 500 years. They have gone from roughly four main reformers to literally thousand today. I would say the faulty human reasoning lies with you.

If you desire to believe that it is your choice. The only other person who had an idea on predestination earlier than Calvin was Augustine.

Actually, Paul had it before both of them (Ro 8:29, Ro 8:30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11).

However the Church did not accept his theory as scriptural. The RC developed some kind of hybrid predestination view in the 16 century to stop the flow of RC congregants to protestant denominations.

Romans and Ephesians are Scriptural.