Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[sawdust]

Previously addressed; viz, "The body without the spirit is dead." (Jas 2:26)

Yes, the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. That is how Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. His spirit returned to God who gave it. An immortal and incorruptible spirit could not remain within a corrupted body and the reason our spirit is immortal and incorruptible is becasue it is something of the very nature of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So simple to understand.

 

[Cassian]

I note the failure to deal with the Biblical demonstration itself in my post, without which your assertion does not have merit.

You have the authority of the word of God written confused with Biblical demonstration of the word of God written, which Biblical demonstration you do not address, thereby leaving your assertion without merit.

Humans don't establish Truth, the word of God written establishes Truth.

Christ is the way and the Truth. Scripture is an historical record of that Truth.

According to the authority of the word of God written, its meaning being the meaning of its words in Greek, and understood in the context and light of the whole NT, which Biblical demonstration you have yet to demonstrate is incorrect, thereby rendering your assertions without merit.

I have demonstrated that long ago in this thread.

Hopefully, declared heretical based on Biblical demonstration of their error, which you have yet to do of my Biblical demonstration.

Indeed!

See above.

 

[sawdust]

And in the context of the life of the human body, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what is meant by "spirit."

And the context of James 2 is the working out of one's spiritual life, not their physical life.

 

[AbbaLove]

You have the authority of the word of God written confused with Biblical demonstration of the word of God written, which Biblical demonstration you do not address, thereby leaving your assertion without merit.

Humans don't establish Truth, the word of God written establishes Truth.

You might agree that the Words of Jesus ... "born of water and born of Spirit " ... are open to different intereptation by Christians. Even "born again" Christian theologians with advanced learning in Greek and Hebrew don't see eye-to-eye on who is and isn't truly a "born again" Christian. Besides is there any foolproof way of proving who is and isn't a "born again" Christian by supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If that isn't a difficult task there are more than a few Christians that believe the nine supernatural Gifts were only active with the 1st Century Apostles and have since then ceased.

Is it not just as likely, or more likely, that Jesus was referring to a water baptism immersion unto repentance as "born of water". There are NT accounts with John the Baptist being foremost ... as well as other accounts in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 16:33, Acts 19:2-6) of a water immersion baptism as "born of water".

Is it not more likely that Christ Jesus in John 3:5 is referring to a "born again" transformation. Just as is Titus 3:5 (regeneration) that happens in the "twinkling of the eye" for the Faithful called out ones that ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven as newly "born again" creations? So were they "born again" a second time for those that believe they were first "born again" while still on earth and then "born again" after the physical death of the body.

Here's something that many Christians are undecided or believe what their church teaches ...

For those that believe Paul (after his conversion) still did the things he knew he shouldn't do (sin) and didn't do the things he knew he should do (Romans 7:14-25). How do Christians justify they are "Born Again" if they are still sinning. Yet that is what the majority of so-called Christians are led to believe that "born again" Christians still go on sinning. Actually Paul was referring to himself sinning before he was confronted by his Lord and Saviour and became a new man in Christ.​

​

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

 

[Diamond72]

It's interesting what you have said here but it is only discussing physical death. It doesn't address spiritual death which, is what this thread is essentially about.

We are star stuff, a star had to die to give Adam the body that he had. You must be talking about the breath of life that God breathed into Adam. Our DNA goes from generation to generation. Even if our Body dies the DNA still lives on and is passed on. Just like cells die but they are replaced with new cells that live to reproduce themselves. Now science is beginning to show that what we call instinct is memory that gets passed to the next generation in our DNA.

 

[Diamond72]

And the context of James 2 is the working out of one's spiritual life, not their physical life.

Life reproduces itself. The Naza thought we could perfect ourselves by creating the perfect race. Even abortion and family planning is based on eugenics. Even if they do not tell people that.

 

[Clare73]

Christ is the way and the Truth. Scripture is an historical record of that Truth.

Low view of God's word written.

Scripture is the God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) divine revelation of that Truth, which the Holy Spirit himself establishes in human hearts.

I have demonstrated that long ago in this thread.

Not in any discussion with me. . .

 

[sawdust]

Life reproduces itself. The Naza thought we could perfect ourselves by creating the perfect race. Even abortion and family planning is based on eugenics. Even if they do not tell people that.

Yes, that's why Jesus said flesh gives birth to flesh. But the flesh has no value in generating spiritual life which is why He also said, Spirit gives birth to spirit. This is how we know that what is being generated in us through the new birth is not eternal life but is spirit. We receive eternal life through being placed in union with Christ. OT believers were never placed in union with Christ. They walked with Christ, literally (like Adam pre-fall) and figuratively like the Prophets ("the word of the Lord came to me") but they were never made to be as one like a husband and wife. This was a mystery to OT saints. (Eph.5:31-32)

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You mean disagree with your personal interpretation of scripture. which is why there are so many self-imposed interpretations to scripture.
Especially when scripture plainly disagrees with those who hold this authority, denying the Authority of the Holy Spirit as clearly stated in scripture.

Except that you do not apply them. You are imposing your personal authority over that of the Holy Spirit, the Church that Christ established.
Of course, you surely are not alone by any means. Untold numbers have done and claimed the same thing for 500 years and have yet to establish and kind of Truth.

Only according to your authority. Just like those below who claimed their interpretation was scriptural as well.
Arianism, Nestorianism, Monotheletism, Universalism, Millenarianism, Pelagianism, Original Sin and many others. So you are not the only one who claimed their authority over scripture but were all declared heretical.

God bless and have mercy.

​

That door swings both ways. Just sayin'

 

[Clare73]

Yes, the body without the spirit is spiritually dead.

You are adding to the word of God in Jas 2:26.

Flesh is not spirit (Jn 3:6). . .the body is never spiritually dead, it is always and only physically dead.

That is how Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. His spirit returned to God who gave it.
His spirit could not remain within a corrupted body

Problem: "The body without the spirit is dead." (Jas 2:26)

EDIT: Jas 2:26 is an analogy of the material (human body) and the immaterial (human spirit).

As immaterial (faith) without material (works )is dead, so
the material (body) without the immaterial (human spirit) is dead.

and the reason our spirit is immortal and incorruptible is becasue it is something of the very nature of God.

In 1 Co 15:42, 50, 53, 54, "incorruptible" (aphthora, n.; aphthartos, adj.) and "corruptible" (phthora, n.; phthartos, adj.) refer to physical decay, as in the grave, the effect of the withdrawal of life, the condition of the body in human burial;
they do not refer to morally corrupt (kapeleuo), as in the result of sin.

The immortal human spirit does not depart the human body until the death of the human body, for
"The body without the spirit is dead. (Jas 2:26)

So simple to understand.

Evidently not. . .knowledge of the Greek definitions of the Greek words, the language God chose for his NT revelation, is required.

 

[timothyu]

Even abortion and family planning is based on eugenics. Even if they do not tell people that.

So was the last three years

 

[Clare73]

And the context of James 2 is the working out of one's spiritual life, not their physical life.

Actually, it is the working out of their spiritual life in their physical life.

". . .his faith (spiritual) and his actions (physical) were working together," (Jas 2:22).

"As the body (physical) without the spirit (spiritual) is dead,
so faith (spiritual) without deeds (physical) is dead," (Jas 2:26).

You have set asunder what God has joined in the spiritual life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. That is how Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. His spirit returned to God who gave it. An immortal and incorruptible spirit could not remain within a corrupted body and the reason our spirit is immortal and incorruptible is becasue it is something of the very nature of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So simple to understand.

Demonstrate this construction from Scripture, without having to add your POV into the mix.

 

[biblelesson]

Adam, made in the image of God, had eternal life until he sinned, the result of sin is death, Jesus, the second Adam obeyed God, died on the cross and restored eternal life to all those who accept Him as their savior.

I agree and would like to add more about Adam's fall.

Salvation for us today is directly related to what happened in the Garden of Eden.

Adam was told he could eat from every tree of the garden, but that he could not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Genesis 2:17. So once Adam ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he had to be put out of the garden so that he would not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever, Genesis 3:22.

I don't know if people ever thought about what would have happened if Adam, who had already eaten from the the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, had eaten from the tree of Life and lived forever. That would have presented a whole other set of problems for God. There would have been beings who were now tainted with evil who could live forever. Can you imagine what would have happened? Satan would have had new allies.

So God made sure that this would not happen and He put "Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life," Genesis 3:24.

The reason man could eat from the Tree of Life and live forever is Adam's fleshly body could have change to a mortal body that would live forever based on the law of sowing and reaping - harvesting. 1 Corinthians 15 explains this process: Paul explains" ...that which thou soweth, is not quickened, except it die, 1 Corinthians 15:36. This process is just like planting a seed in the ground; the seed must die to become the body it intended. He explains that that which thou soweth, soweth not that body that shall be, but bare grain...., 1 Corinthians 15:37. And as we have born the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, 1 Corinthians 15:49. Paul explains a mystery though: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51. This is the process in the Garden of Eden. Man being earthly, fleshly, if Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, he would have been changed (without dying) to a body that would have lived forever. He would have gone from mortal (flesh) to immortal (spiritual/heavenly). Man has to have a fleshly body first before he can have a heavenly body. Like sowing and reaping.

So now, that process was halted: God's creation, fleshly man, who was created to live forever through the process of eating from the Tree of Life had fallen and headed for eternal damnation.

Now, what was God's plan to redeem man from his fallen state in order to accomplish is original plan for man? Jesus.

No man on earth could offer salvation to man, Acts 4:12. No animal that was sacrificed under the old testament law of animal sacrifice could offer salvation to man, Hebrews 10:4. So to redeem man, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, Romans 8:3. Jesus's sacrifice satisfied God to save man "that he not parish" due to the original fall, John 3:16.

 

[Clare73]

You might agree that the Words of Jesus ... "born of water and born of Spirit " ... are open to different intereptation by Christians. Even "born again" Christian theologians with advanced learning in Greek and Hebrew don't see eye-to-eye on who is and isn't truly a "born again" Christian. Besides is there any foolproof way of proving who is and isn't a "born again" Christian by supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If that isn't a difficult task there are more than a few Christians that believe the nine supernatural Gifts were only active with the 1st Century Apostles and have since then ceased.

Is it not just as likely, or more likely, that Jesus was referring to a water baptism immersion unto repentance as "born of water". There are NT accounts with John the Baptist being foremost ... as well as other accounts in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 16:33, Acts 19:2-6) of a water immersion baptism as "born of water".
Is it not more likely that Christ Jesus in John 3:5 is referring to a "born again" transformation. Just as is Titus 3:5 (regeneration) that happens in the "twinkling of the eye"

Are you comparing "regeneration and renewal (of the spirit) by the Holy Spirit" (Tit 3:5) to
the change at the resurrection to an imperishable (immortal) body "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Co 15:52)?

for the Faithful called out ones that ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven as newly "born again" creations? So were they "born again" a second time for those that believe they were first "born again" while still on earth and then "born again" after the physical death of the body.

Is 1 Co 15:52 about a renewal of the spirit by the Holy Spirit, regeneration from spiritual death to spiritual life,
or is it about a changed body, from mortal (subject to death/decay; perishable) to immortal (never-ending life; imperishable)?

Here's something that many Christians are undecided or believe what their church teaches ...

For those that believe Paul (after his conversion) still did the things he knew he shouldn't do (sin) and didn't do the things he knew he should do (Romans 7:14-25).​

Was he not comparing his life under the law to the deliverance of his life in Christ (Ro 7:25a), and where v. 25b is a summary of vv.13-24, his life under the law?

How do Christians justify they are "Born Again" if they are still sinning. Yet that is what the majority of so-called Christians are led to believe that "born again" Christians still go on sinning. Actually Paul was referring to himself sinning before he was confronted by his Lord and Saviour and became a new man in Christ.​

Are you saying the born again are always obedient in every thought, word and deed after their rebirth?

Was Paul not born again. . .did he never sin in thought, word or deed after his rebirth?

I question your premise that the born again never sin in thought, word or deed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Besides is there any foolproof way of proving who is and isn't a "born again" Christian by supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If that isn't a difficult task there are more than a few Christians that believe the nine supernatural Gifts were only active with the 1st Century Apostles and have since then ceased.

Strange you should bring that up as a potential way to prove regeneration. Why did you do that? Does the Bible do that? "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

 

[sawdust]

Demonstrate this construction from Scripture, without having to add your POV into the mix.

I've given scripture. If you want to make "Spirit giving birth to spirit" as anything other than what it says, no amount of scripture will convince you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've given scripture. If you want to make "Spirit giving birth to spirit" as anything other than what it says, no amount of scripture will convince you.

sawdust said:
Yes, the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. That is how Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. His spirit returned to God who gave it. An immortal and incorruptible spirit could not remain within a corrupted body and the reason our spirit is immortal and incorruptible is becasue it is something of the very nature of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So simple to understand.

Mark Quayle said:
Demonstrate this construction from Scripture, without having to add your POV into the mix.

Specifically, demonstrate your reasoning, from Scripture, that arrives at "His spirit returned to God who gave it". The fact you gave scripture doesn't do anything if you don't show how that Scripture teaches or demonstrates what you claim here concerning Adam. You have come up with a construction in the whole statement, apparently by that one small part, that I don't see in Scripture. Where does it say while Adam was living on earth, post-Eden, he had no spirit.

I didn't claim to be making "Spirit giving birth to spirit" as anything at all. I just want to know how you come up with this construction.

 

[GenemZ]

Previously addressed. . .

You're too lazy to show me what I missed?

I see..

 

[GenemZ]

We are born condemned (Ro 5:18),
enemies of God (Ro 5:10),
by nature (with which we are born), objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
from which wrath Jesus saves (Ro 5:9)
through grace by faith (Eph 2:8-9).

We are born condemned because God imputes Adam's sin to all mankind.

But, David's infant son committed no personal sin, for at that point he was unable to.

Remember? You said this!

We start to die as soon as we sin. It just takes time to die.

David's infant son had no means to sin.