Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

[M Paul]

That should tell us something. These people had gone to Seminary and hadn't even accepted Christ yet!

When I had visited Benny Hinns church in FL, I was amazed when he introduced several hundred pastors that had left their pulpits to come sit under Benny's teachings.

At the seminary I attended everyone had accepted Christ, so I don't know how well I could relate to your experience.

Benny Hinn is an extremely controversial character, and discussion of his ministry in an interdenominational setting is just about impossible, as people don't set out their biases and prejudices first, before making assessments. I can't say I know that much about him, but I am a Classical Pentecostal --hmm, he may be Faith Movement. I saw an NBC news program review of his ministry, and obviously thier objective was to run him down. They asked for medical records to verify his healings. He provided them, and they had thier own doctors review them. The doctors said it was always possible that the people actually were misdiagnosed to begin with. That was the best they could come up with??? Well, they put as much of a negative spin on it as they could.

I saw him teach Scripture once on TV, and it was not accurate, but it wasn't unChristian in any sense. At any rate, keep in mind that every highly successful religious revival in America has been denounced and condemned by well educated people with prestigious positons in the church (almost always from a Calvinist background) --but these revivals are what kept America Christian. Finney said when revivals dies, America dies as a Christian nation--but Finney is condemned to this day. But, when Beecher forced him into a debate to prove he was not genuine-well, when the debate was over, the only thing Beecher would say was that he would never debate Finney again. And the main critic of Edwards, Chancey, he went on to become a Unitarian, the very thing that Edwards' opponents accused him of causing. Hinn is in a long line from this tradition, and a lot of them had some inaccurate theology, including Finney, and Edwards endorsed Arminianism as a postive thing for evangelism, even though incorrect. Whether Hinn is genuine or not--I don't know--but I know that the tradition he is from has always been condemned since the First Great Awakening, and most of it was just prejudice against believing in the power of God. But, then the Pharisees didn't like the power Christ had, and they made certain his theology proved he was not orthodox.

Regards,

Paul

 

[heron]

Ah yes, and church history in seminary is valuable....thanks for details and your confession (seminary), Paul. I can understand why you wouldn't mention it here. It'll be our little secret, lol.

The important thing to remember with any of these incidents is that God stillsees hope for these people. It doesn't need to be an us-them situation. They are people who probably started out with good intent, and need to be brought back in line. God can do that, He does it all the time. That's where prayers are so valuable.

Scriptures say to pray for those in authority. Some people do, some don't. Some think it's just a rote practice, okay, pray for the president. But if we're not covering our influential people with prayer, who knows what the influence will become. We're not strong enough as humans to keep doing it perfectly year after year, on our own steam.

 

[M Paul]

Ah yes, and church history in seminary is valuable....thanks for details and your confession (seminary), Paul. I can understand why you wouldn't mention it here. It'll be our little secret, lol.

The important thing to remember with any of these incidents is that God stillsees hope for these people. It doesn't need to be an us-them situation. They are people who probably started out with good intent, and need to be brought back in line. God can do that, He does it all the time. That's where prayers are so valuable.

Scriptures say to pray for those in authority. Some people do, some don't. Some think it's just a rote practice, okay, pray for the president. But if we're not covering our influential people with prayer, who knows what the influence will become. We're not strong enough as humans to keep doing it perfectly year after year, on our own steam.

Yep. But most church history I know, I had to learn on my own.



Paul

 

[discernomatic]

Absolutely!!! The real reason to go to seminary is to learn how the games get established and how they actually operate. Then, if one is not suckered into it, he/she can really know what will be involved in trying to make a change. However, without that seminary experience, I don't think a person can truly understand the schemes that go on in the church.

Commenting on this and what Breezy said after:

This is an eye opener. So is this telling of the seed of spiritual abuse and trickery? That those that go to seminary learn how to do it or better, learn how to do it so that the future church members don't notice?

Maybe that's what Benny Hinn was doing with those pastors.

 

[breezynosacek]

I'm not totally sure what 'all' Benny Hinn has been involved in. I left after I realized that he was twisting Scriptures. Those that I fellowshiped with that had introduced me to Benny's Church became enraged when I suggested that the Holy Spirit had shown me this. (how that happened is for another time).

The point is, that he brainwashed them not to question his doctrines or his methods. "Touch not the Lord's annointed."

I went away from my 'freinds' hurt and wounded. As a new believer, just starting to get a solid foundation in the Word, I had looked up to these people that had been Christians for 20 yrs or so.

I was invited to a picnic and at first, I refused to go. I didn't want to open myself up to the same people that had abused me earlier.

Boy, was I surprised!
The most vehement person in the whole matter, left our area to join up with one of those groups that were started by one of the pastors that sat under his teachings. She came back so beat up, and according to her, had to run away to save her life. She looked like she had just been released from a concentration camp.

To make a long story short, she backed up what I had said all those years ago. Apologized profusely, in fact the majority of those that had shunned me apologized and said that yes, Benny had gone off the deep end.

Now, I know that I have forgiven them, but even after they offered their opologies, I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do know one thing, I wouldn't ever want any of them to pray for me or over me.

Swapping demons (through the laying on of hands and coming into agreement with prayers that are antiscriptural) is a habit among a lot of the Charismatics and those that got into the little gods, WOF, holy laughter movements, personally, I am of the opinion that that is how this thing spread.

I began to notice that those that still held to the Truth, would go into these conferences with some of the leaders of said movements. When they got back, it wouldn't be long before they started showing some of the same signs as the false teachers when they first started out.

One of the first things I now warn those that are determined to find a church is, "don't let them lay hands on you and be careful what you come into agreement with (give your amen's to)".

I know this is going to sound off the wall. The Lord taught me to pray for discernment before going into a new church. Don't participate, stand back and watch and pray and listen. Look up every single Bible passage. That's how I spotted what was wrong in Hinn's Church. I had prior to that gotten caught up in the praise and worship but when I went back that last time, I prayed and watched.

Not concerning Hinn's false teaching but rather what goes on during the services. The music is set up (now don't go postal on me) to mesmerise and brainwash. The adrenaline alone will encite many that wouldn't normally blindly follow a leader's directions, to do just that. For anybody that has been exposed to cult movements and the use of brainwashing techniques it is easy to see.

1. Militant Songs that are supposed to be hymns that normally leave out the blood of Jesus Christ or His sacrifice.
2. Repetitions, repetitions, repetitions.
3. Music that heightens the adrenaline to a frenzy. (you can actually see people during these services become vulgar and vile in their body movements). Some even foaming at the mouth or losing control, similar to epilepsy.

What I heard the Holy Spirit tell me was that

'If Benny said to the congregation during the praise and worship, "Your guns and ammunition are in the back, go kill all of the heretics" they would do it without questioning.'

Now let me tell you that I really questioned if that was from the Lord or not, but several years later, I was told by the Lord twice, to turn on the TV to watch them. Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn both said on national TV that "I wish I had a Holy Spirit machine gun so I could kill all you heretic hunters!!!"

To say the least I sat there with my mouth hanging open in shock.

 

[M Paul]

I'm not totally sure what 'all' Benny Hinn has been involved in. I left after I realized that he was twisting Scriptures. Those that I fellowshiped with that had introduced me to Benny's Church became enraged when I suggested that the Holy Spirit had shown me this. (how that happened is for another time).

Oh sure. But the thing about Hinn is that he is Pentecostal. And, the prejudice against Pentecostals has been around as long as they have. And those who want to preach against them have their techniques--like it's an obession with them, so that they find every opportunity to bring it up, how the people who believe in the power of God are all wrong. Like this forum--it's supposed to be about the unchurched and the home churched, and a discussion of the validity of Benny Hinn or Pentecostals has nothing to do with the issues to be reviewed here. But there are ways to make sure he is brought up, so that every detail of the ugly truth about him can be smeared in every corner.

However one thing the people who want to smear Pentecostals just don't get is, how obvious their schemes are. That's why they don't work--so that by 100 years after the Azusa Street Revival, Pentecostals were bringing 50 million believers a years under their ministries, and by today, the number is still increasing so fast, no one can keep count. You see, the Pentecostal response is, like what Charles Finney taught, don't respond to those who want to condemn and create strife over the power of God, just keep on preaching what one knows is the truth. So, those who want to make a ministry out of condemning, well, they're already having to do so from the side lines, while the Pentecostals are taking over the mainline of Christianity. Let me quote a review of a book by a Penn State University professor.

"The scale of Christian growth is almost unimaginable," said Dr. Philip Jenkins, distinguished professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State University.

Jenkins shocked and probably panicked some of America's political and media elite with his acclaimed book, The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity. Jenkins argues the greatest movement of the past century was not communism or capitalism. Do the math and the winner is spirit-filled Christianity, or what he terms in his study as "Pentecostalism."


So, as far as Hinn goes, the condemnation will continue, and the great majority of it, well it might just as well be written on toilet paper, for the truth that can be found in it.That's just how prejudice and truth works.


Regards,


Paul

 

[M Paul]

Commenting on this and what Breezy said after:

This is an eye opener. So is this telling of the seed of spiritual abuse and trickery? That those that go to seminary learn how to do it or better, learn how to do it so that the future church members don't notice?

Maybe that's what Benny Hinn was doing with those pastors.

I'm sorry. I'd really rather not talk about it. There are good people in seminaries and on the staff. I don't think I was making myself clear, but I'd rather not go on with it.

Regards,

Paul

 

[New_Wineskin]

The point is, that he brainwashed them not to question his doctrines or his methods. "Touch not the Lord's annointed."

I see this in many groups that have leaders and state that it is important to be committed to a singular group . Even if they would allow questions , they usually don't allow equal time for those who question or have an argument against a teaching/doctrine . And , even more rarely would such a thing be allowed in the same meeting where everyone could participate in a discussion or even allow any others to be a part of it at all .

Combine this with the attitude that the meetings are to be centered around a teaching and the leaders are allowed full reign .

 

[heron]

So true.

"I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do know one thing, I wouldn't ever want any of them to pray for me or over me. "

I've noticed this in groups that have left churches after seeing deception. They still have some of the same habits and mindsets and convictions, and haven't yet been able to sort out the Word from the false teachings. It takes a while. So exercising caution here is just logical. As for contact with the people, I'm sure it brings up raw emotions that you're better off allowing to rot off the vine.

The frenzy thing is kind of scary. I do see God work in times of worship, and I believe that some of the physiological and neurological things that go on are related to how He works with His Spirit within us. After all, God created science, and our bodies, and our minds. But the practice of zoning out puts our brain waves at the same level as self-hypnosis. I don't consider that wrong in itself, but what Breezy suggested was not that far off the wall. (But in self-hypnosis we still have free will.)

I'd find a link for that but I have to run.

 

[M Paul]

So true.

"I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do know one thing, I wouldn't ever want any of them to pray for me or over me. "

I've noticed this in groups that have left churches after seeing deception. They still have some of the same habits and mindsets and convictions, and haven't yet been able to sort out the Word from the false teachings. It takes a while. So exercising caution here is just logical. As for contact with the people, I'm sure it brings up raw emotions that you're better off allowing to rot off the vine.

The frenzy thing is kind of scary. I do see God work in times of worship, and I believe that some of the physiological and neurological things that go on are related to how He works with His Spirit within us. After all, God created science, and our bodies, and our minds. But the practice of zoning out puts our brain waves at the same level as self-hypnosis. I don't consider that wrong in itself, but what Breezy suggested was not that far off the wall. (But in self-hypnosis we still have free will.)

I'd find a link for that but I have to run.

Frenzy??? Zoning Out??? That's not a Pentecostal understanding of what happens with the outpouring of Holy Spirit, but a description imposed on their practice of religion by others. It doesn't in any way resemble the meaning of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that I set out in the article on my web site, "Who Is the Holy Spirit," and I stick to the basics of Pentecostal theology. For instance, here is a quote of the very last paragraph of the article from the addendum.

"Cessationists also commonly maintain that Pentecostal power amounts to nothing more than excessive emotion conjured by highly excited services, which create general disorder and a delusion of spiritual power. There can be no doubt that an excessive degree of emotional excitement can cause delusions and exert control over the will. On the other hand, Scripture clearly indicates one must follow God with the entire heart, with intense emotion, Deuteronomy 11:13; Psalm 34:18; 37:4; 42:1,2; 139:21; Matthew 5:6,12; 9:36; Mark 3:5; John 2:17; Revelation 3:15-19. However, Scripture does not associate the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with emotion, but it even admonishes that tongues should be spoken with order, I Corinthians 14:26-33,39,40. The fact that some people confuse emotion with the Baptism does not mean that Pentecostals are emotional in general. However, Pentecostals recognize that neither can genuine, heart felt emotion for praising God be denied."

In another article I give a synopse of Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections, as an example of how to put emotion in perspective. And in another article, I set out synopses of works by Charles Finney, the grandfather of Pentecostalism, which provides further examples of how to put emotion into perspective, and it is very common in Pentecostal environments to review the works of these men. For instance, here is a summary description from my web site of Letter Six, "Excitment in Revivals," of Charles Finney's Revival Fire.

"In every age of the Church, there have been genuine manifestations of divine truth through the means of being slain in the Spirit, just as the prophet Daniel and the apostle Paul serve for examples. However, in real cases of this overwhelming power, the intelligence is not stultified or confused. The person remains calm. There are no tears or unusual displays of emotion, but the mind sees truth unveiled. The incidents occur by a simple revelation of God, not by external means adapted to the result, or by appeals to excite the imagination."

However, it seems that people who want to note that Pentecostals are "frenzied" and "zoned out," primarily cite the examples of, "well, I went to a Charismatic church once, and you would not believe what the maniacs were doing." Yes, it's a first hand account of CHARISMATIC CHAOS. But, the Pentecostal works such as those found on my web site that represent Pentecostalism as anything but excessive emotion and chaos--well, somehow they get overlooked, and the people with the first hand accounts don't know anything about them.

Yes, some Christians are on a mission to let everyone know, that there's now well over half a billion fake believers in the world constantly going into a state of "frenzy" and "zoning out," who need drugs to calm themselves down, and who want to lead the church into an insane asylum, because they do the work of Beelzubub. What can the true believers do?? Well, it seems one common suggestion is to take advantage of every opportunity to let the truth be known, even if it means setting aside some time that normally would go to helping people understand that the Pope is the anti-Christ, (and that's why all the Catholics will burn in hell--right beside the Pentecostals, of course), and even if it means going completely off topic in an internet forum, because sometimes the truth just has to be told sideways--it's a fact of life about how things are done.

but what Breezy suggested was not that far off the wall. (But in self-hypnosis we still have free will.)

I'd find a link for that but I have to run.

It's a good thing that Breezy's suggestion was not far off the wall, because the documented evidence is missing.

Regards,

Paul

 

[New_Wineskin]

So true.

"I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do know one thing, I wouldn't ever want any of them to pray for me or over me. "

I've noticed this in groups that have left churches after seeing deception. They still have some of the same habits and mindsets and convictions, and haven't yet been able to sort out the Word from the false teachings. It takes a while. So exercising caution here is just logical. As for contact with the people, I'm sure it brings up raw emotions that you're better off allowing to rot off the vine.

The frenzy thing is kind of scary. I do see God work in times of worship, and I believe that some of the physiological and neurological things that go on are related to how He works with His Spirit within us. After all, God created science, and our bodies, and our minds. But the practice of zoning out puts our brain waves at the same level as self-hypnosis. I don't consider that wrong in itself, but what Breezy suggested was not that far off the wall. (But in self-hypnosis we still have free will.)

I'd find a link for that but I have to run.

Some very interesting points .

 

[heron]

Well, I had more that I was going to add to that post but something came up. My reference to frenzy was not the general accusation, but Breezy's observation on contrived music.

"3. Music that heightens the adrenaline to a frenzy."

I've attended Charismatic churches for years, so it's not an argument against any religious organization. It's specifically against planning ahead of time to rev up a crowd for a desired result.

I was on a worship team where this method gradually increased. One week I even asked for a LOA because a traumatic decision was made at church, and the WT leader proposed we not quench the spirit with the realities of the decision, but keep people charged up with peppy songs. I asked to leave the team temporarily after seeing it continue.

I saw this technique blatantly employed every time there was a critical announcement or decision that the leadership wanted to pass by the congregation. We sang three energetic songs, then were asked to shout our response of support for the decision. There were no opportunities for "nays," or questions about logistics and implications.

I'm only telling this story to say that contrived worship happens in the best of churches, with the most well-meaning people, and it's easy to let it slide once in a while. It starts with "let's give people a chance to free-worship between these two songs," builds with innocent decisions of matching appropriate songs to the sermons, and starts to warp when people try to protect an atmosphere or a plan or a person. Anything can spin out of control, including regimentatedquiet.

 

[heron]

Hey, this accidentally posted before I was done (and the last words garbled).

Anything can spin out of control, including regimented quiet.

Paul, thank you for contributing details on outpouring vs. emotion. My opinion--God left a lot out when it came to instructions for praise and worship, and when that happens, there is freedom. We can add our own legalisms, but God leaves a lot of it open. We don't have to fear praising God wrong, within the guidelines scattered throughout scriptures. If we see harm done, we can jump in and correct it.

 

[M Paul]

Well, I had more that I was going to add to that post but something came up. My reference to frenzy was not the general accusation, but Breezy's observation on contrived music.

"3. Music that heightens the adrenaline to a frenzy."

I've attended Charismatic churches for years, so it's not an argument against any religious organization. It's specifically against planning ahead of time to rev up a crowd for a desired result.

I was on a worship team where this method gradually increased. One week I even asked for a LOA because a traumatic decision was made at church, and the WT leader proposed we not quench the spirit with the realities of the decision, but keep people charged up with peppy songs. I asked to leave the team temporarily after seeing it continue.

I saw this technique blatantly employed every time there was a critical announcement or decision that the leadership wanted to pass by the congregation. We sang three energetic songs, then were asked to shout our response of support for the decision. There were no opportunities for "nays," or questions about logistics and implications.

I'm only telling this story to say that contrived worship happens in the best of churches, with the most well-meaning people, and it's easy to let it slide once in a while. It starts with "let's give people a chance to free-worship between these two songs," builds with innocent decisions of matching appropriate songs to the sermons, and starts to warp when people try to protect an atmosphere or a plan or a person. Anything can spin out of control, including regimentatedquiet.

Heron,

That's not what Breezy's posting was about--ie. at times emotion is used wrong in the Pentecostal church. The discussion was about how to change the thinking of the traditional church, to move more in the direction of home church beliefs. I noted that change is not easy and the resistance is often instituionalized in seminary. Breezy noted that Benny Hinn has major problems for being considered legitimate. HUH!?!! Well, Hinn is extremely controversial, and part of a tradition in evangelism that has been run into the dirt since the First Great Awakening, and people who attack Pentecostals often depend on some groups of Christians holding that degrading ministries that advocate the power of God can be experienced is completely appropriate. Picking a particular ministry to condemn is not what the thread is about--it's just trying to take another opportunity to express prejudice. And, it just so happens that ministry was Pentecostal--what a coincidence, another instance of the tried and true technique.

Regards,

Paul

 

[New_Wineskin]

More good points , heron !!

I saw this technique blatantly employed every time there was a critical announcement or decision that the leadership wanted to pass by the congregation. We sang three energetic songs, then were asked to shout our response of support for the decision. There were no opportunities for "nays," or questions about logistics and implications.

Typical . Don't you just loooove dictators and their regimes ?

 

[heron]

Paul, threads take all kinds of twists and turns, and I am simply exercising my right to respond along the lines of the topic of the OP, Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched? Please don't tell me what to write.

 

[M Paul]

Paul, threads take all kinds of twists and turns, and I am simply exercising my right to respond along the lines of the topic of the OP, Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched? Please don't tell me what to write.

Where was that--that I told you what to write??? Or that I told anyone what to write??? However, if the train of thought is one thing, and someone interjects into it a totally off related comment for the sake of running down someone, I'm going to point out what happened when I'm involved. So, if you have in mind telling me not to do that--well, don't tell me what to write.

Regards,

Paul

 

[heron]

My comments were not totally unrelated to what others said. They were unrelated to one very small subtopic of Hinn withing this discussion. My last few posts related to new wineskin's and breezy's comments, and trying to respond to your misinterpretation of my posts.

Frenzy??? Zoning Out???...
Like this forum--it's supposed to be about the unchurched and the home churched, and a discussion of the validity of Benny Hinn or Pentecostals has nothing to do with the issues to be reviewed here...
It's a good thing that Breezy's suggestion was not far off the wall, because the documented evidence is missing....
That's not what Breezy's posting was about...The discussion was about ...Picking a particular ministry to condemn is not what the thread is about... [???]
someone interjects into it a totally off related comment....[???]

I haven't seen anyone's comments totally off-related. But I am feeling I am wasting my time trying to fend off whatever you think imagine am saying. The thread is about reasons people feel the need to leave church. Maybe feeling misunderstood and not listened to, lol?

 

[heron]

Not a big deal.

It's important for people who've seen injustices and felt uncomfortable with practices to have a place to put them. If someone's problem was with Hinn, they should feel free to say that. I really don't think this was turning into an anti-Hinn slam, or an anti-pentecostalism flame, or whatever. People are just sharing their experiences and trying to get past them.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Not a big deal.

It's important for people who've seen injustices and felt uncomfortable with practices to have a place to put them. If someone's problem was with Hinn, they should feel free to say that. I really don't think this was turning into an anti-Hinn slam, or an anti-pentecostalism flame, or whatever. People are just sharing their experiences and trying to get past them.

I agree . I consider that your posts dealt with the thread . You made some good points .