DeVos puts down teachers she visited-teachers respond

keith99

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Ok. Thanks for sharing about your experiences. Glad your son had a really good English teacher at least. So what do you think of Betsy DeVos & what she said about the teachers at the school she briefly visited?

In post #25 on the thread Hannah gave a more complete context of the quote.

In that context I tend to agree. In my post I said we need a way to get rid of bad teachers. Right now it seems the only ways a teacher gets canned are inappropriate sexual contact, showing up drunk or not at all or not using the latest method imposed from the top.

The full context has her kissing teacher butt and saying they are being held back because they have developed an attitude of waiting to find out the latest new system.

I would be surprised if all the teachers at that school are that good. But it would not surprise me if the school administrators could steer them to teachers who at least could all look good for the short visit.

I think just what gets pushed from the top needs to be carefully examined. There needs to be a common framework but teachers also need some freedom to take advantage of both their strengths and those of students. My concern is that she may think removing all guidelines is called for, which would be a disaster.
 
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lasthero

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Always happy when I have time to comply.

Education

"A master's degree in education leadership or education administration is usually required for principals and superintendents of public elementary and secondary schools. Students entering these programs often have bachelor's degrees in counseling, education or some other related field. Graduate degree programs in education administration or education leadership often include coursework in administration, curriculum development and management. Private elementary and secondary schools, along with colleges and universities, often do not specify educational requirements for educational administrators. Nonetheless, most educational administrators for colleges and private elementary and secondary schools hold at least a master's degree; many hold professional or doctoral degrees."

Qualifications for an Educational Administrator

Are you confused? Nothing in this post helps your assertion that many school administers don't have education degrees. In fact, it rather hurts your claim. Quite badly. Especially when you read the rest of the link.

Several years' experience as a teacher or instructor usually precede a promotion to a position as school administrator.

Thanks for the link, though. I'm not quite sure why you would provide me with a link that shows what you said was a pure fabrication, but...I appreciate the honestly? I guess?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Most people with money just take their own kids out of public education. At least she cares enough to want all students to have that choice.

President Obama's two daughters attended an elite private school in Washington where tuition runs $37,750.

How ironic that you preemtively accused me of weaseling out of your challenge and then, when I provide examples, in her own words of how DeVos has spent 20 years trying to destroy public education you weasel out with a non sequitur.

Here's what she said again. How about actually addressing what she said?

>> DeVos in 2001 listed education activism and reform efforts as a means to "advance God’s Kingdom".[3][4] In an interview that year, she also said that "changing the way we approach ... the system of education in the country ... really may have greater Kingdom gain in the long run". <<

>> DeVos is known as a "a fierce proponent of school vouchers" that would allow students to attend private schools with public funding.[112] According to The New York Times, it "is hard to find anyone more passionate about the idea of steering public dollars away from traditional public schools than Betsy DeVos". <<
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Why keep trying to run a lame horse? Public schools were created to fail, if the goal is education. If the goal is to create semi-literate workers who are not smart enough to question, much less change the system, they are working as designed.

Given how much else you have written in this thread that is demonstrably wrong, you'll understand if I am skeptical of every word in this paragraph.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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lol...a tad edgy...bordering on mean (which means it's my kind of humor lol)

However, what you're saying, unfortunately, is not that far from the truth.

All of this sentiment of anti-public schools, anti-common core, pro-voucher, pro-"School Choice" all showed up right around the time of the Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling in which the judge ruled that they can't teach intelligent design in the science class, which caused some folks to suck sour grapes.

That's where the lion's share of opposition comes from. It's not because the average family is going to benefit from a $5,000 school voucher (which gets you jack squat in terms of private schools), it's not because there is anything inherently wrong with the idea of a universal set of standards by which to hold public schools accountable (they were all okay with the concept when Bush's iteration of it was rolled out)

The "School choice" initiative serves two purposes:
1) Give well-to-do parents (who were already sending their kids to private school anyway) a $5,000 rebate at the expense of the public school

2) "You're not going to promote my religious views anymore?!?!?...I'll show you!!!!"

The unfortunate part is, the people behind reason #1 are the masterminds who are really benefiting from this...they've just tricked the people behind reason #2 into voting against their own best interests. Considering that the lion's share are going to end up in public school anyway, their kids will still be taught evolution, but now they'll just be learning it in an underfunded school district while the DeVos family's private school gets a new water park and planetarium lol.

Well said.
 
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SkyWriting

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Wrong again. If your wife was a teacher for that long she should understand that teachers can help poor students become good students. She should also know that good students will thrive more with good teachers.

I never said anything about bad teachers. I never had 1 in the years I went to public schools in the US. Mine were great.

No, they cannot. The best teachers can do is connect with
students at the level their parents / grandmothers neighbors
leave them at the door.

The idea that schools can raise kids up is hogwash. This is why
students in poor areas fail to thrive. This is also why rich kids
in rich schools fail to dominate.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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As I recall, the Wikipedia article has a pretty good rundown on this matter. It's certainly not that she was nominated because her family has been a major contributor to Republican campaigns. I might also add that if President Trump had used that rather crass standard for picking his Cabinet members, hardly any of the nominees he actually has picked would have been chosen.

Do you care to link some info?

I checked the Wiki article, not seeing much as far as education experience... however, I'm seeing a lot of entries for Education activism (which is very different from expertise/experience)
Betsy DeVos - Wikipedia
 
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pat34lee

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You seem to not understand that the states are already in charge in most aspects.

The states have some options, like you would have when you buy a car and there is only one manufacturer. The overall design and setup is already set by the federal bureaucracy.
 
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pat34lee

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Are you confused? Nothing in this post helps your assertion that many school administers don't have education degrees. In fact, it rather hurts your claim. Quite badly. Especially when you read the rest of the link.

Thanks for the link, though. I'm not quite sure why you would provide me with a link that shows what you said was a pure fabrication, but...I appreciate the honestly? I guess?

Degrees in school admin are not the same as teaching degrees, even if they both contain education in the titles. And note the words 'usually required' in the quote. Also, what is required is flexible when they have candidates they like or not enough qualified applicants.
 
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rturner76

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No, they cannot. The best teachers can do is connect with
students at the level their parents / grandmothers neighbors
leave them at the door.

The idea that schools can raise kids up is hogwash. This is why
students in poor areas fail to thrive. This is also why rich kids
in rich schools fail to dominate.
Schools don't need to raise kids but the idea that teachers can't reach students who have challenges at home and don't come prepared is the real hogwash.

I have worked in the inner city school system for a number of years and seen many students inspired by teachers that were excellent role models who applied a high standard of fair discipline, gaining the trust of their most challenging students and achieving gains in academic achievement thought not possible in certain cases.

Other teachers just show up and collect a check. It's really luck of the draw if you do not investigate at your local school and see who the best teachers are. What you are correct about is the students that have the most success overall are the ones with parental involvement.

It's just that to say teachers CAN'T reach students is fasle.
 
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lasthero

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Degrees in school admin are not the same as teaching degrees, even if they both contain education in the titles. And note the words 'usually required' in the quote.

Yes. 'Usually'.

As in: Often. Customary. Typically.

As in: It's not common for a school administer to not be a former teacher.

Is it possible? Yes.

But nothing you posted indicates that many of them are, which is what you asserted.
 
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SkyWriting

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Schools don't need to raise kids but the idea that teachers can't reach students who have challenges at home and don't come prepared is the real hogwash.

I have worked in the inner city school system for a number of years and seen many students inspired by teachers that were excellent role models who applied a high standard of fair discipline, gaining the trust of their most challenging students and achieving gains in academic achievement thought not possible in certain cases. Other teachers just show up and collect a check. It's really luck of the draw if you do not investigate at your local school and see who the best teachers are. What you are correct about is the students that have the most success overall are the ones with parental involvement. It's just that to say teachers CAN'T reach students is false.

It's far worse than that. The kids cannot sit down or shut up to
even begin to hear anything. And thanks to mainstreaming
required by law, dangerous kids are found in one out of 6 seats.

You have failed to produce these failing teachers you imagine.
You get an F.
 
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keith99

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No, they cannot. The best teachers can do is connect with
students at the level their parents / grandmothers neighbors
leave them at the door.

The idea that schools can raise kids up is hogwash. This is why
students in poor areas fail to thrive. This is also why rich kids
in rich schools fail to dominate.

I disagree somewhat. Occasionally the best teachers do manage to truly connect with a kid and help that one child rise far above the level their parents leave them at. BUT even the very best cannot do this all the time.

Also in a boarding school good teachers can do far more. Assuming the culture of the school allows it.
 
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SkyWriting

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I disagree somewhat. Occasionally the best teachers do manage to truly connect with a kid and help that one child rise far above the level their parents leave them at. BUT even the very best cannot do this all the time.

Also in a boarding school good teachers can do far more. Assuming the culture of the school allows it.


!00%.

And my wife agrees that boarding school is the
only solution for the public education problem.

She can make great gains with a kid, only to have
the parents feed the little diabetic all the candy
they ask for.

Metaphorically, as well as actually.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I am a naturalized U. S. citizen who immigrated from Canada after college graduation. I was a university professor for many years and recently retired as a United Methodist pastor. Education professors have been good friends and I have heard serious complaints about public schools from parishioners who are conscientious teachers. In my view, there are 3 basic problems with modern public schools which have a devastating impact on average performance.

(1) Social promotion:
When I attended 7th grade in Winnipeg as a 12-year-old, Room 1 was full of 15-year-old 7th graders, who had repeatedly failed. There was no social promotion. 1/3 of my senior high school class failed the year. It is no doubt humiliating to be "kept back" due to a failure to meet decent standards. No doubt, more tutors should have been provided. But in my view, the greater evil in American schools is the standard social promotion that promotes students to high school who read at an elementary school level. Because students have little fear of failing, they become slothful, impossible to challenge, and slaves of culturally induced low expectations.

(2) Lack of School Discipline and Detention
In 7th Grade, Jim Denham was out of control in science class. So our teacher smashed his head against a steel pipe until he bled profusely. That teacher kept his job and the only question Jim's father had was what Jim did to provoke this abuse! Ghastly, I know! By contrast, today my Middle School teacher friends complain that many of their students pay little attention in class and refuse to do homework. Their students know they'll receive social promotion and their parents refuse to discipline them. I pointed out that, in my school days, teachers could keep such students after class for detention until they learned to fulfill class requirements. My teacher friends replied that most of these problem students are bussed and their parents can't or won't drive to school to pick them up after an extended detention period. So detention classes are not an option.

(3) Grade Inflation:
Decades ago, it was much more difficult to get an A than it is today. As a college professor, I was appalled by the low grading standards of my colleagues. Good teaching was typically measured by student performance, but that performance was often measured not by quality of work, but by grade inflation. When our Division I basketball players learned that I was not an easy A or B, they were told not to take my class. That was good for me, because my classes were still generally full and high standards attracted a better caliber of student, which made class interaction far more satisfying.

So what is the solution? Well, student apathy and indolence spreads like a virus. If charter schools can create an atmosphere that discourages social promotion, incorporates the fear of failure and being held back a year, and eliminates rampant grade inflation, then America might reverse the depressing trend of relative poor performance in math and science in comparison with the better foreign school systems. I am hopeful that Betsy De Vos will stimulate progress towards that end. Competition seems to be as good a way as any to raise standards and achieve better results.

Btw, a history professor requires his grad students to read the Federal Papers, and they complained vehemently that these writings were too difficult to read. The professor smiled wryly and said, "Well, they were written to be read by 19th century farmers who dropped out of school after the 7th grade! Why have our standards of reading and writing slipped so badly in recent decades?

It is very simple: education has become a commodity to be traded, sold and marketed by qualification.

It isn't simply about education. The elephant in the room regarding the degeneracy of education is money - specifically allocation and funding.

If the students came to environments meant for learning, instead of environments meant for small NYC lounge parties with textbokks, then what is to be expected?

Up to date textbooks inspire - that requires money.

Up to date enrichment materials (whiteboards, interfacing, computers, paper, etc.) inspires learning - that requires money.

Administration that understands how to manage the status quo and care for student and educator well being requires education and training. That requires money.

School buildings with new or renovated laboratories, shops, and activity areas (libraries, gyms, showers and weight rooms, kitchen, etc.) inspire students. That requires money.

Quality well-balanced meals rich in nutrition for breakfast and lunch will continue student energy reserves to learn. Even more, it should be mandatory that students get a basic nutritious meal for free - especially if it is required for the student to attend school. This requires money.

Another smaller elephant in the room is the way in which public schools are operated in order to maximize budget allowances. If you get $X/per student per day, then of course administrators will promote attendance over mastery. Enriching the student educational experience becomes tertiary to budgets, and infrastructure.

Social programming in public schools is a consequence of the degeneracy of pedagogy - from an administrative level. When there are little to no resources to effectively teach, and the students are required to come to classes with outdated books, limited materials and unenthusiastic educators (lacking resources to begin with,) then what is to be expected? It sets up a perfect storm for social engineering.

Psychologically speaking, the "headship" of the class, the teacher, is seen as lacking to the students in classes lacking resources and funding. Naturally, this creates a "vacuum" of authority waiting to be filled. Students, then, begin to fall in social order and hierarchy. This can permeate the entire institution. It all comes back to money as a universal motivator (unfortunately.)

One person isn't going to fix it; indeed, the army of educators that care and work to teach students for mastery - despite pay or treatment - still fight uphill battles.

It isn't easy for an educator to see "student failure," and not blame ourselves in some way. We take what we do seriously, and it is insulting when someone who has little experience "in the trenches" makes such "axiomatic" statements as in the OP.
 
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Albion

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Based on what we read in posts 95 and 96, wouldn't it make sense to appoint as Education Secretary someone who has worked towards finding alternatives or solutions that might turn things around...rather than just another NEA favorite?

You wouldn't think so from reading all the posts that express outrage that the new Secretary isn't just another water carrier for the status quo. :(
 
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Cute Tink

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Cimorene

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No, they cannot. The best teachers can do is connect with
students at the level their parents / grandmothers neighbors
leave them at the door.

The idea that schools can raise kids up is hogwash. This is why
students in poor areas fail to thrive. This is also why rich kids
in rich schools fail to dominate.

I never said that schools should raise kids. A good teacher can raise some kids up. Maybe not every kid but a lot of them. I know I've been raised up by good teachers & I know other kids who don't have parents like mine & are poor have been too which is why I know what you're writing here is what's totally hogwash.
 
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SkyWriting

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I never said that schools should raise kids. A good teacher can raise some kids up. Maybe not every kid but a lot of them. I know I've been raised up by good teachers & I know other kids who don't have parents like mine & are poor have been too which is why I know what you're writing here is what's totally hogwash.

You were lucky to not have been assaulted in class by
manic students off their meds thanks to parents.
You can ask my daughter who works at juvenile detention
how easy it is to learn there. My wife often knows the
family tree. One kid can destroy the learning environment
for 20 others.
 
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keith99

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You were lucky to not have been assaulted in class by
manic students off their meds thanks to parents.
You can ask my daughter who works at juvenile detention
how easy it is to learn there. My wife often knows the
family tree. One kid can destroy the learning environment
for 20 others.

Uh, detention facilities are for those who have consistently broken the rules. Of course there is a problem where the trouble makers have been concentrated.
 
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