DeVos puts down teachers she visited-teachers respond

pat34lee

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Hey, uh, Pat?



I'm still waiting on the source for that claim. Just in case you missed it. I'm sure you have it, because you're a good, honest Christian, and you'd never make something up for the purposes of bolstering an argument. I'd just like to see the source, too.

Always happy when I have time to comply.

Education

"A master's degree in education leadership or education administration is usually required for principals and superintendents of public elementary and secondary schools. Students entering these programs often have bachelor's degrees in counseling, education or some other related field. Graduate degree programs in education administration or education leadership often include coursework in administration, curriculum development and management. Private elementary and secondary schools, along with colleges and universities, often do not specify educational requirements for educational administrators. Nonetheless, most educational administrators for colleges and private elementary and secondary schools hold at least a master's degree; many hold professional or doctoral degrees."

Qualifications for an Educational Administrator
 
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pat34lee

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No need for me to use my own verbiage. Her own words are more than sufficient.

>> DeVos in 2001 listed education activism and reform efforts as a means to "advance God’s Kingdom".[3][4] In an interview that year, she also said that "changing the way we approach ... the system of education in the country ... really may have greater Kingdom gain in the long run". <<

>> DeVos is known as a "a fierce proponent of school vouchers" that would allow students to attend private schools with public funding.[112] According to The New York Times, it "is hard to find anyone more passionate about the idea of steering public dollars away from traditional public schools than Betsy DeVos". <<

You're welcome.

Most people with money just take their own kids out of public education. At least she cares enough to want all students to have that choice.

President Obama's two daughters attended an elite private school in Washington where tuition runs $37,750.
 
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seashale76

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Most people with money just take their own kids out of public education. At least she cares enough to want all students to have that choice.

President Obama's two daughters attended an elite private school in Washington where tuition runs $37,750.
You have no idea, do you? None whatsoever. It's all well and good to prance around claiming everyone should have a choice. It sounds nice and noble, et cetera. Practically speaking, it will not work. Do you honestly think that a few and far between charter schools would be even remotely prepared to take on the burden of every child? The sheer numbers alone would do them in. Heck, figuring out transportation and meals would have them shutting their doors.

However, we all know charter schools can kick out their problems. Public school must take everyone. Perhaps you should put your support behind helping our public schools.
 
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Desk trauma

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Most people with money just take their own kids out of public education. At least she cares enough to want all students to have that choice.

All parents have that choice. They just don't get tax payer money to do so.
 
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SkyWriting

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Nope. You are the one who is totally missing the bigger picture.

Most people who are successful & have good parents are successful not just bc of them, but bc of others in their life as well. Such as teachers. There's a lot of people who are successful who weren't blessed with good parents & for them good teachers make even more of a difference!

Yes, I'm really fortunate to have great parents. Both of them have graduate degrees, the highest they could go in their fields. But they don't know anything about coding. It was a teacher who got my older sister into it when she was young. We both have had really terrific CS teachers which is great bc our parents know very little about CS. They don't even know enough to help with homework. We went to an after school program at school that had tutors who helped with it. Neither of my parents play an instrument or can read music. We learned from music teachers. My sister's merit scholarship to U of C was bc of her music + her grades & test scores being so high. Neither are fluent in foreign languages. We learned from teachers. So many of the skills we have are from teachers. Some of our teachers were also coaches & were really terrific. We also just learned things about life from them. At our schools there have been kids who are in foster care, who've lost their parents already, who have parents who can't or won't help them. That's why teachers are so important. Bc those kids matter too!

When we moved to WA we looked into a charter school. Parents had to agree to volunteer outside of their kid's classroom a minimum number of hours per month in order for their child to be enrolled. Great in concept maybe but it was unfair bc it meant that kids whose parents couldn't volunteer that much didn't get to go. For us it didn't work out bc my mom was still taking care of my grandpa in Chicago, & my dad couldn't take that much time off work. A lot of kids from that school ended up transferring to the public school we did go to, bc it had better teachers, better programs, & way more offerings like orchestra, band. More kids from that public MS got into the IB program that was competitive for admission than the kids from the charter school! Public schools are more fair to me bc they cannot reject a kid bc of the kid's parents. Each kid is accepted & educated.

My wife is a 20 year Milwaukee Public School Special Ed teacher
now working in a private charter school.

What you are talking about only works for good students.
It does not work for bad students.
Good students can learn from any source,
not even attending school or having parents.

I'm still seeking info on these imaginary bad teachers though.
Where are they again?
 
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Cimorene

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My wife is a 20 year Milwaukee Public School Special Ed teacher
now working in a private charter school.

What you are talking about only works for good students.
It does not work for bad students.
Good students can learn from any source,
not even attending school or having parents.

I'm still seeking info on these imaginary bad teachers though.
Where are they again?

Wrong again. If your wife was a teacher for that long she should understand that teachers can help poor students become good students. She should also know that good students will thrive more with good teachers.

I never said anything about bad teachers. I never had 1 in the years I went to public schools in the US. Mine were great.
 
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pat34lee

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You have no idea, do you? None whatsoever. It's all well and good to prance around claiming everyone should have a choice. It sounds nice and noble, et cetera. Practically speaking, it will not work. Do you honestly think that a few and far between charter schools would be even remotely prepared to take on the burden of every child? The sheer numbers alone would do them in. Heck, figuring out transportation and meals would have them shutting their doors.

However, we all know charter schools can kick out their problems. Public school must take everyone. Perhaps you should put your support behind helping our public schools.

Why keep trying to run a lame horse? Public schools were created to fail, if the goal is education. If the goal is to create semi-literate workers who are not smart enough to question, much less change the system, they are working as designed.

Forget the current system: It's time to dismantle and remake it completely. Take the government out of the schools and turn them over to the states to either run or privatize as they see fit. Different states, different types of schools, different standards.
 
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seashale76

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Wrong again. If your wife was a teacher for that long she should understand that teachers can help poor students become good students. She should also know that good students will thrive more with good teachers.

I never said anything about bad teachers. I never had 1 in the years I went to public schools in the US. Mine were great.
I see both sides of this issue. You're both right to an extent.

Teachers are able to help poor students become good students- it all depends on how persistent a teacher is and how inspired a student is to make an effort.

Even so, students who have parents that take an active role in their education will almost always perform fairly well regardless of what goes on in the classroom (and no matter how good or bad their school is rated). Anyone who puts the onus for educating children solely on the public schools (or any school) is doing their offspring a huge disservice.

I used to offer my time after school to tutor struggling students, only for very few to ever take me up on it. Very few parents of such students truly care, and I witnessed that over and over again. Plenty of administrators changed failing grades to passing ones during the summer. The kids know it is all a joke, so why should they care? Why bother if you know you'll get passed on no matter what? The concept of expulsion doesn't exist anymore and suspension is just a break from school.

Yes, there ARE bad teachers out there and they get loads of press. However, there are also a lot of great teachers out there who are fighting a losing battle against a culture that is apathetic and doesn't value learning.

I taught in three different schools. One was considered good, one was considered bad, and one was truly in-between. What makes a school good or bad actually isn't the teachers, because teachers can and do transfer to various schools often. I guarantee you that a child's teachers in the good schools have likely also taught at bad schools. I've also taught with many teachers in public schools that had also taught in private schools. Good and bad teachers exist in all schools.

When you start examining the underlying factors of what makes a school good or bad, you will eventually discover that it is entirely dependent on the demographics of its population. The in-between school where I taught was considered a school in crisis because of test scores. However, this school had a very high percentage of ESL students that were forced to take standardized tests in a language they didn't even understand. The bad school had administrators that didn't know how to tackle the issue of having a student body that was almost all low-income, from broken homes, in gangs, surrounded by drugs, et cetera. The good school had a high percentage of students from families that were middle class with involved parents. Most schools tend to have students from various backgrounds, just in varying percentages.

Here's the answer to a parent's dilemma. In my observation, no matter the school, the deciding factor of a child's success was always the parents. Parents must care, parents must be involved, and parents must not depend on any school (public or private) to cover all of the bases. It is not fair, but the way public education in this nation was originally set up and really hasn't deviated from since the beginning, is that it is assumed that parents are doing certain things outside of school with how they raise their children.

I've mentioned this in other threads over the years but, some sociologists have pinpointed that there are certain things middle and upper class families tend to do in child-rearing that lower and working class families do not and, the public education system in the US assumes that everyone is doing (or should be). Unfortunately, the lower social classes don't tend to realize this or understand that a lack of what is termed 'concerted cultivation' and direct parental involvement educationally (outside of school) is essential to social mobility for their children. The result is that educational achievement (which is directly correlated to social status in the US) is not realized.
 
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pat34lee

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All parents have that choice. They just don't get tax payer money to do so.

No, their money gets wasted along with everyone else's in the public schools, so they have to pay twice for educating their own children. Not a big deal for politicians or other rich people, but a lot of money for the lower and middle class.
 
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Desk trauma

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No, their money gets wasted along with everyone else's in the public schools, so they have to pay twice for educating their own children.

They have the same options as everyone else. Just as people are not provided cars with public funds because they don't want to use public transport.
 
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seashale76

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Why keep trying to run a lame horse? Public schools were created to fail, if the goal is education. If the goal is to create semi-literate workers who are not smart enough to question, much less change the system, they are working as designed.

Forget the current system: It's time to dismantle and remake it completely. Take the government out of the schools and turn them over to the states to either run or privatize as they see fit. Different states, different types of schools, different standards.
You seem to not understand that the states are already in charge in most aspects.
 
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Cimorene

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I see both sides of this issue. You're both right to an extent.

Teachers are able to help poor students become good students- it all depends on how persistent a teacher is and how inspired a student is to make an effort.

Even so, students who have parents that take an active role in their education will almost always perform fairly well regardless of what goes on in the classroom (and no matter how good or bad their school is rated). Anyone who puts the onus for educating children solely on the public schools (or any school) is doing their offspring a huge disservice.

I used to offer my time after school to tutor struggling students, only for very few to ever take me up on it. Very few parents of such students truly care, and I witnessed that over and over again. Plenty of administrators changed failing grades to passing ones during the summer. The kids know it is all a joke, so why should they care? Why bother if you know you'll get passed on no matter what? The concept of expulsion doesn't exist anymore and suspension is just a break from school.

Yes, there ARE bad teachers out there and they get loads of press. However, there are also a lot of great teachers out there who are fighting a losing battle against a culture that is apathetic and doesn't value learning.

I taught in three different schools. One was considered good, one was considered bad, and one was truly in-between. What makes a school good or bad actually isn't the teachers, because teachers can and do transfer to various schools often. I guarantee you that a child's teachers in the good schools have likely also taught at bad schools. I've also taught with many teachers in public schools that had also taught in private schools. Good and bad teachers exist in all schools.

When you start examining the underlying factors of what makes a school good or bad, you will eventually discover that it is entirely dependent on the demographics of its population. The in-between school where I taught was considered a school in crisis because of test scores. However, this school had a very high percentage of ESL students that were forced to take standardized tests in a language they didn't even understand. The bad school had administrators that didn't know how to tackle the issue of having a student body that was almost all low-income, from broken homes, in gangs, surrounded by drugs, et cetera. The good school had a high percentage of students from families that were middle class with involved parents. Most schools tend to have students from various backgrounds, just in varying percentages.

Here's the answer to a parent's dilemma. In my observation, no matter the school, the deciding factor of a child's success was always the parents. Parents must care, parents must be involved, and parents must not depend on any school (public or private) to cover all of the bases. It is not fair, but the way public education in this nation was originally set up and really hasn't deviated from since the beginning, is that it is assumed that parents are doing certain things outside of school with how they raise their children.

I've mentioned this in other threads over the years but, some sociologists have pinpointed that there are certain things middle and upper class families tend to do in child-rearing that lower and working class families do not and, the public education system in the US assumes that everyone is doing (or should be). Unfortunately, the lower social classes don't tend to realize this or understand that a lack of what is termed 'concerted cultivation' and direct parental involvement educationally (outside of school) is essential to social mobility for their children. The result is that educational achievement (which is directly correlated to social status in the US) is not realized.

Thanks for your input. I know that not everybody lucked out as much my sibs & I have with great teachers. My parents went to public schools too & had great experiences. I disagreed with what that guy wrote to me earlier, putting all my success on my parents bc they definitely helped but I give a lot of credit to my schools too. Like I wrote back to him, my parents are really educated but couldn't teach us a lot of what we are doing the best in. Like with CS, they're totally clueless, & it's important to know it now. It wasn't as big back when they were in school.

I'm sure parental involvement is really important. That doesn't mean teachers aren't important & don't play a big role. 1 of my sister's friends who goes to U of C with her now grew up in foster care. She never knew her dad, & her mom kept getting arrested. She didn't have parental support, so teachers helped her a lot. She got a merit scholarship too. I have friends who aren't in that dire of a situation but their parents aren't involved & good teachers have helped them too. I've got really great profs at the college where I'm taking classes now. It just makes it a way better experience all around.
 
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Martinius

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Why keep trying to run a lame horse? Public schools were created to fail, if the goal is education. If the goal is to create semi-literate workers who are not smart enough to question, much less change the system, they are working as designed.
Not sure what public schools you are talking about, but what you say does not agree with what I know. My knowledge comes from being involved in education, having a spouse who is a teacher, and a few other things.

For example, I live in an area with several thriving private schools, and among people who can afford to send their children to those schools. But those people generally send their kids to the public schools, because they are known to be excellent. I know of people who have moved, or are moving, into certain districts so that their children can attend these really good 'public' schools.

Another: I am a product of public education, from kindergarten through college. Not in a rich community, but in a mostly middle class area with some poor families thrown in. I think I received a great education. My children as well. One of my own was valedictorian, got a full ride scholarship to a 'public' university, and then was given another full scholarship to a highly ranked medical school, and is now a doctor and professor at....you got it, a 'public' university, working on public health issues. Not bad for a kid who attended a public school designed, as you put it, to fail. I would take that kind of failure, and many other examples I know about, any day.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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She's just mad the kids weren't being taught that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.

lol...a tad edgy...bordering on mean (which means it's my kind of humor lol)

However, what you're saying, unfortunately, is not that far from the truth.

All of this sentiment of anti-public schools, anti-common core, pro-voucher, pro-"School Choice" all showed up right around the time of the Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling in which the judge ruled that they can't teach intelligent design in the science class, which caused some folks to suck sour grapes.

That's where the lion's share of opposition comes from. It's not because the average family is going to benefit from a $5,000 school voucher (which gets you jack squat in terms of private schools), it's not because there is anything inherently wrong with the idea of a universal set of standards by which to hold public schools accountable (they were all okay with the concept when Bush's iteration of it was rolled out)

The "School choice" initiative serves two purposes:
1) Give well-to-do parents (who were already sending their kids to private school anyway) a $5,000 rebate at the expense of the public school

2) "You're not going to promote my religious views anymore?!?!?...I'll show you!!!!"

The unfortunate part is, the people behind reason #1 are the masterminds who are really benefiting from this...they've just tricked the people behind reason #2 into voting against their own best interests. Considering that the lion's share are going to end up in public school anyway, their kids will still be taught evolution, but now they'll just be learning it in an underfunded school district while the DeVos family's private school gets a new water park and planetarium lol.
 
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TLK Valentine

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It must be that the Liberals begin to believe their own propaganda after spouting it a certain length of time. Betsy DeVos has many years of experience with education, schools, and teachers.

I'm sure she was a student once, and attended many classes.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It must be that the Liberals begin to believe their own propaganda after spouting it a certain length of time. Betsy DeVos has many years of experience with education, schools, and teachers.

I'm not a liberal and I still take issue with her lack of experience.

Can you please elaborate on what her experience is in the educational field? Keeping in mind, throwing a bunch of money at various right-wing causes in the educational realm doesn't equal "experience with education".

By that standard, Bill Gates is qualified to lead up a scientific research team on the topic of AIDS. ...and I mean no offense to Bill on that one, just merely pointing out that bankrolling causes in a particular field doesn't equate to experience in that field.
 
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keith99

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Wrong again. If your wife was a teacher for that long she should understand that teachers can help poor students become good students. She should also know that good students will thrive more with good teachers.

I never said anything about bad teachers. I never had 1 in the years I went to public schools in the US. Mine were great.

My experience was quite different. I had several bad teachers in public school. When my stepson attended High School I saw several more bad teachers.

You mentioned that your sibling was taught coding. One incident that happened to me in about the 3rd grade was that in math class we were told to express '5' in some other form. I chose to give it in binary, 101. It was marked wrong, no one could convince the teacher it was in fact correct. Because she could not understand it, it was chicken scratches. Her words.

I was in a small private school from 6th through 9th grade. I won't say there were never problems, there were. But problem teachers were gone after a year or sooner. That is not the case with public schools. Problem teachers remain for decades. That problem is not limited to the United States. My (now ex and still German) wife had a poor teacher, everyone knew the teacher was worse than useless. Her children suffered under the same teacher. Everyone knew the problem for over 20 years and no one could do anything.

I had some worthless teachers in High School. But the Physics class was good enough that I took the AP exam and received one quarters credit for it. OK I was good and arrogant as heck but there were at least a half dozen others in the class who could outscore me on any given test.

And I was a good student, so I got pushed towards the good teachers. Or sometimes I pushed myself that direction. In History I took pretty much one teacher. He was a bit harder grader but a lot less boring.

When my stepson attended the same school most of his teachers were poor. He was not a good student and did not get channeled to the better (and harder) teachers. There was one huge exception. One of his English teachers was close enough to Sidney Poitier out of To Sir With Love to be spooky. He was that good and yes that color.

There are plenty of good public school teachers and plenty of bad ones. What needs to be addressed is a way to get rid of the bad ones.
 
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keith99

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I'm not a liberal and I still take issue with her lack of experience.

Can you please elaborate on what her experience is in the educational field? Keeping in mind, throwing a bunch of money at various right-wing causes in the educational realm doesn't equal "experience with education".

By that standard, Bill Gates is qualified to lead up a scientific research team on the topic of AIDS. ...and I mean no offense to Bill on that one, just merely pointing out that bankrolling causes in a particular field doesn't equate to experience in that field.

The thing is Bill Gates is qualified to head up a research team on just about anything!

Well depending on just what one means by heading up the team. Shifting into athletics makes explaining so easy. He can head the team as a coach, not as a quarterback.

Bill is smart enough to know he is not an AIDS expert and if he develops an interest he can become an owner coach and buy and assemble the talent to get the job done. If he instead thought he was qualified to be the lead researcher at best we would get a good laugh out of it.
 
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My experience was quite different. I had several bad teachers in public school. When my stepson attended High School I saw several more bad teachers.

You mentioned that your sibling was taught coding. One incident that happened to me in about the 3rd grade was that in math class we were told to express '5' in some other form. I chose to give it in binary, 101. It was marked wrong, no one could convince the teacher it was in fact correct. Because she could not understand it, it was chicken scratches. Her words.

I was in a small private school from 6th through 9th grade. I won't say there were never problems, there were. But problem teachers were gone after a year or sooner. That is not the case with public schools. Problem teachers remain for decades. That problem is not limited to the United States. My (now ex and still German) wife had a poor teacher, everyone knew the teacher was worse than useless. Her children suffered under the same teacher. Everyone knew the problem for over 20 years and no one could do anything.

I had some worthless teachers in High School. But the Physics class was good enough that I took the AP exam and received one quarters credit for it. OK I was good and arrogant as heck but there were at least a half dozen others in the class who could outscore me on any given test.

And I was a good student, so I got pushed towards the good teachers. Or sometimes I pushed myself that direction. In History I took pretty much one teacher. He was a bit harder grader but a lot less boring.

When my stepson attended the same school most of his teachers were poor. He was not a good student and did not get channeled to the better (and harder) teachers. There was one huge exception. One of his English teachers was close enough to Sidney Poitier out of To Sir With Love to be spooky. He was that good and yes that color.

There are plenty of good public school teachers and plenty of bad ones. What needs to be addressed is a way to get rid of the bad ones.

Ok. Thanks for sharing about your experiences. Glad your son had a really good English teacher at least. So what do you think of Betsy DeVos & what she said about the teachers at the school she briefly visited?
 
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I'm not a liberal and I still take issue with her lack of experience.

Can you please elaborate on what her experience is in the educational field? Keeping in mind, throwing a bunch of money at various right-wing causes in the educational realm doesn't equal "experience with education".
As I recall, the Wikipedia article has a pretty good rundown on this matter. It's certainly not that she was nominated because her family has been a major contributor to Republican campaigns. I might also add that if President Trump had used that rather crass standard for picking his Cabinet members, hardly any of the nominees he actually has picked would have been chosen.

By that standard, Bill Gates is qualified to lead up a scientific research team on the topic of AIDS. ...and I mean no offense to Bill on that one, just merely pointing out that bankrolling causes in a particular field doesn't equate to experience in that field.
 
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