Determining Reality

[guitarmonster]

Can you give me a logical explanation for the miracles I have seen? Like the woman who had multiple sclerosis, then seconds later was healed in an instant? Keep in mind that shortly after, her doctor was not able to provide her with any explanation as to how she was healed.

If you can't answer openly on that then pm me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Right now, it is legal to use prisoners of war for forced labor. It says so in the Geneva Convention and in U.N. documents, the standard-bearers for human rights at the present time. Thus, early medieval Christian civilization had the same approach to forced labor as our nation and almost all other nations do today.

It's a historical fact that in ancient Rome and other ancient civilizations, almost all hard labor was slave labor, while in medieval western Europe there was no or virtually no slave labor in the areas where Catholicism was dominant. If you want to dispute this you may do so, but you should probably provide a credible historical source to back yourself up.


In that case, the "human rights" that folks had in ancient Babylonia would be considered worthless by today's standards. Since you insist on being pedantic, I'll modify my statement. Early Christian civilization introduced to the world the idea of a body of human rights including the right to live, be free, and hold property.

Slavery wasn't done away with so much as it was changed into "slavery lite" or serfdom. This is hardly what we would call "human rights" as serfs only had it marginally better than slaves.
How is it pedantic to answer a question the way you wrote it? Also, is this all that's left of the legacy of the "most important man in history"? The fact that equality among men was thought up in some Christian nations around 1400 years after his death? Nevemind that this "equality" didn't apply to blacks, women, or foreigners in general.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Can you give me a logical explanation for the miracles I have seen? Like the woman who had multiple sclerosis, then seconds later was healed in an instant? Keep in mind that shortly after, her doctor was not able to provide her with any explanation as to how she was healed.

If you can't answer openly on that then pm me.

I'd have to look into that one myself. Can you give me the name of The woman and her address or phone number or some way to contact her to verify your story? I'd also like the number of the church and name of the preacher please. I suppose I'd have to rely on the little old lady for the information on her dr.

 

[razeontherock]

Then Poe's law doesn't make much sense.

Well Nathan Poe didn't make much sense, but actually his "law" did. And it gained quite a bit of notoriety all over the interwebz. It's no doubt the most famous aspect of CF - which is a real cryin' shame, considering the massive amount of talent that has contributed here through the years.

 

[razeontherock]

The law of logic at work here is the law of non-contradiction. But please, tell me how you can find a way around it, you'd be the first....

The law of non-contradiction is not violated, but it is NOT the only thing at work in your scenario. (Or I should say, Thomas Paine's scenario.)

No 2 people will bear witness the same way, when seeing the same thing, if it's significant enough. I can't believe you're not aware of studies proving this.

Real people, have real emotions, and that plays havoc with facts. Someone getting one thing wrong has no bearing on the validity of everything else they're saying. Example:

I saw somebody shoot someone in front of a house. Joe cop asks me what color was the house? I say I don't know, someone got shot. He presses me, so I say blue just to shut his face up. The next person he questions who saw the same thing says the house was yellow. In fact the house was an off-white.

Someone still got shot. We both still saw it. The color of the house is irrelevant, and the killer is that much farther from being caught.

The same principle can, and does, happen with more relevant details. And this facet of human nature has perfect relevance to the actual subject matter here, because the crucifixion of our Lord was outrageously traumatic.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The law of non-contradiction is not violated, but it is NOT the only thing at work in your scenario. (Or I should say, Thomas Paine's scenario.)

No 2 people will bear witness the same way, when seeing the same thing, if it's significant enough. I can't believe you're not aware of studies proving this.

Real people, have real emotions, and that plays havoc with facts. Someone getting one thing wrong has no bearing on the validity of everything else they're saying. Example:

I saw somebody shoot someone in front of a house. Joe cop asks me what color was the house? I say I don't know, someone got shot. He presses me, so I say blue just to shut his face up. The next person he questions who saw the same thing says the house was yellow. In fact the house was an off-white.

Someone still got shot. We both still saw it. The color of the house is irrelevant, and the killer is that much farther from being caught.

The same principle can, and does, happen with more relevant details. And this facet of human nature has perfect relevance to the actual subject matter here, because the crucifixion of our Lord was outrageously traumatic.

Is your story about the blue house true? Is the story about the yellow house true?

 

[razeontherock]

Like the woman who had multiple sclerosis, then seconds later was healed in an instant?

My Dad has been through that. In fact, he got diagnosed with MS around the same time he found out they had conceived ME. Dad got told he would be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, beginning around 1974, which would be enough time for the disease to take irreversible effect. Now for a teacher that might be manageable, but as a music teacher one of his duties was marching band.

Absolutely no trace of MS, ever, based on testing done after 1995. Teachers may not get paid much, but their benefits are great, and testing for this sort of thing is REALLY good. Such a development isn't possible according to medical science. Explain that Mr an atheist.

 

[guitarmonster]

Seaford Wesleyan Church (Aka The Ark)
Pastor is Dave Kiser, I used to go to his church when I was a teen. I would say this happened roughly around 1995. She went to the church for years and had multiple sclerosis really bad, there is no doubt that Dave will remember her. I don't want to put her name out on the internet without her permission, but pastor Dave has been preaching there ever since he built the church. You should give him a call and ask him about it, pastor Dave loves to talk about God's blessings. Tell him Tom Lapp says hi.

The Ark – Seaford Wesleyan Church | It's Time To Come Revelation 22:17
302-628-1020

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well Nathan Poe didn't make much sense, but actually his "law" did. And it gained quite a bit of notoriety all over the interwebz. It's no doubt the most famous aspect of CF - which is a real cryin' shame, considering the massive amount of talent that has contributed here through the years.

Poe's law, as you put it...

Their stance is so preposterous it's impossible to tell if they're serious, or parody.

This doesn't apply to the situation. It's not "impossible" to tell if they're serious, or parody. It's a simple matter of contacting them and asking. If you want to somehow insist it still applies, then it becomes nonsensical. The possibility exists whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[razeontherock]

Is your story about the blue house true? Is the story about the yellow house true?

It's a simpler example of what has been proven in better Colleges, nationwide. I'm surprised you don;t know anything about this. It hasn't been kept a secret.

They rigged a perfectly safe scene, where an unknown but deranged looking person runs in and shoots the Prof, leaving a realistic looking bloody mess. Prof does the fake dying thing, shooter runs out, Prof gets back up and continues teaching.

Immediately students are told no talking, write down what you saw. No two papers have ever come back that say the same thing, or are even consistent with each other. And this is not done in some freshman class, either; but at higher levels, in the best schools. People at their peak of observation and concentration skills.

The law of non contradiction is not violated, but Thomas Paine's maxim sure is! You'll also find that the parallel I drew to contract law is perfectly valid

 

[guitarmonster]

I hope you will call. The best times to probably get him would be about 10:00am Sunday since service starts at 10:30, or about 6:00pm on Wed night. I'm not sure if he is there much during the day, I haven't spoken to him in over 15 years.

 

[razeontherock]

Poe's law, as you put it...

Their stance is so preposterous it's impossible to tell if they're serious, or parody.

This doesn't apply to the situation. It's not "impossible" to tell if they're serious, or parody. It's a simple matter of contacting them and asking.

You still miss what Poe's Law is. I've explained it to you. It's pretty simple.

You do realize you present yourself as knowing pretty much everything, right? Or at least being intelligent enough to be able to figure it out.

This does not back you up. Just an observation.

 

[Ana the Ist]

My Dad has been through that. In fact, he got diagnosed with MS around the same time he found out they had conceived ME. Dad got told he would be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, beginning around 1974, which would be enough time for the disease to take irreversible effect. Now for a teacher that might be manageable, but as a music teacher one of his duties was marching band.

Absolutely no trace of MS, ever, based on testing done after 1995. Teachers may not get paid much, but their benefits are great, and testing for this sort of thing is REALLY good. Such a development isn't possible according to medical science. Explain that Mr an atheist.

Well, certainly I'm no medical Dr. but the little knowledge I have, in addition to the little I've looked up would explain both cases quite easily. Turns out MS is one of those difficult to diagnose neurological disorders. It's not like you simply get a blood test and find MS. THey have to find lesions in your neurological system with a MRI. People can have MS for years and it can go undiagnosed due to the difficulty spotting it.

THat said, apparently the most common type of MS can spontaneously go into remission, even complete remission. There many cases where a patient thinks they're cured because they don't have a relapse for 20,30, even sometimes 40 years. Does this mean they no longer have MS? No. Would a Dr be able to detect MS during one of these remissions? Not necessarily. It seems medical science can easily explain both cases.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You still miss what Poe's Law is. I've explained it to you. It's pretty simple.

You do realize you present yourself as knowing pretty much everything, right? Or at least being intelligent enough to be able to figure it out.

This does not back you up. Just an observation.

Remember when I said it doesn't make sense in this situation? We have more than just a "stance". I don't know how many ways to tell you, the Poe's law doesn't apply/make sense/ or is relevant in any way here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's a simpler example of what has been proven in better Colleges, nationwide. I'm surprised you don;t know anything about this. It hasn't been kept a secret.

They rigged a perfectly safe scene, where an unknown but deranged looking person runs in and shoots the Prof, leaving a realistic looking bloody mess. Prof does the fake dying thing, shooter runs out, Prof gets back up and continues teaching.

Immediately students are told no talking, write down what you saw. No two papers have ever come back that say the same thing, or are even consistent with each other. And this is not done in some freshman class, either; but at higher levels, in the best schools. People at their peak of observation and concentration skills.

The law of non contradiction is not violated, but Thomas Paine's maxim sure is! You'll also find that the parallel I drew to contract law is perfectly valid

I didn't actually read what you posted here because it was obvious from the start you didn't answer my question. If you want a conversation it has to be a two-way street. You ask a question, I answer. I ask a question, you dodge. That's not really a conversation I'm willing to have. So, for a second time, I'll ask.

Is your story about the blue house true?
Is the other story about the yellow house true?

 

[golgotha61]

Any one historical text in itself is unreliable. Earlier, someone mentioned Tacitus since he was arguably a reliable historian. However, Tacitus believed Heracules was a real person who did real things. It's not a particular text that becomes reliable, but the events within them that become reliable when they are verified through other sources. The events in the bible don't have this standard.

Illogical statement. It is always good to have corroboration in historical accounts from separate sources, but just because one stands alone does not define its contents as unreliable. To deny Tacitus credibility as a historian because he believes in something we now can call error, because of other evidences, is unnecessary. The Bible is the only book whose original autographs are error free. The writings of Tacitus are not so guaranteed. The standards of the Bible are guaranteed by God's inspiration.

No writings from Jesus exist.

The reason why Jesus never wrote His own accounts is based in an understanding of the Hebrew culture. Christ was the "teacher" and the teacher's authority was in the spoken word and not the text. Christ had the Gospel writers as His historians.

To say the bible meets the standard of "historical proof" is a poor exaggeration at best.

The Bible is the verbal, plenary, infallible, inerrant word of God inspired by God, free from error in its original autographs. A better study of historiography in the Ancient Near East would reveal to you that in all the Near East, to force the same standards of recording history on that culture as we do on our own is wrong. The Ancient Near East did not record events as reporters and modern historians do today.

The Bible is even more unique in that its historical purpose was focused not on events of historicity but rather on the historical recordings of God's covenantal relationship with His people. History in the Bible was focused on God's revelation and covenant.

 

[food4thought]

my apologies for the lateness off this response. I've gotten a lot of posts to respond to and I'm afraid I've taken the lazy route by responding to easier ones first and yours got lost in the mix.

I'll take that as a compliment of sorts... unless you were simply commenting on the length of my ramblings

I guess at this point we can skip time and go to your statement about Occam's Razor. I'm not doubting that there possibly are cases where a complex answer turned out to be correct instead of a comparatively simple answer, I just can't for the life of me think of one. CAn you?

The existence of multiple dimensions curled up to the plank length, wave-particle duality, general relativity, etc. Check out the Wikipedia article, it gives a few others.

Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't reject the razor in principal, just acknowledge it's limitations.

It's interesting that you want me to provide a detailed definition of a pre-big bang singularity while admitting science has no consensus on this. While they may disagree on its exact nature/form I do recall there being a consensus that it did in fact exist. If science can make this assertion I don't see why I cannot.

I just wanted a better understanding of what you as an individual think so that I could actually address what you really believe instead of some straw man... or generalities stating that you believe the scientific explanation, when you've pointed out to me there is often no consensus among scientists on many of the issues we were discussing.

It has always been my understanding that time couldn't be discussed before the universe existed because there would be no way to describe it. Without matter and energy and its ability to change, how could we differentiate between one moment of time and the next? It would be impossible, right? Well not if you put a "player" in that state of existence. Namely, god. If we put god in this pre-universe state of existence we can now describe time as it relates to him. Moreso if we have god actually doing things, ie. "before god did this, after god did that" etc. So, even if you describe god as not made of matter or energy, we still have time. This tends to make me think of time as a concept over a property, but of course, that's only if god exists.

Interesting, but your view presupposes that time is perceptual. The existence of a Being in a timeless place does not demand time to exist in that place, we simply think in terms of time. The God of the Bible is not like us! Whatever exists outside space-time could be very different. Bottom line, we CANNOT KNOW of ourselves what is or is not possible for a Being outside space-time.

BTW, I still think that time dilation is extremely strong evidence, maybe even proof, that time is indeed a physical property. I have no problems speculating that an eternal Being could create something like a physical universe where time exists. The idea of eternity is beyond human comprehension, and what is or is not possible in such a state of being cannot be fathomed by the human mind... all our thought processes are trapped in the cage of our time perception. God has revealed Himself in ways that human reasoning can comprehend, but that does not mean that His nature is limited to that... as a matter of fact the Bible expresses ideas like eternity that are beyond our ability to fully understand.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, certainly I'm no medical Dr. but the little knowledge I have, in addition to the little I've looked up would explain both cases quite easily. Turns out MS is one of those difficult to diagnose neurological disorders. It's not like you simply get a blood test and find MS. THey have to find lesions in your neurological system with a MRI. People can have MS for years and it can go undiagnosed due to the difficulty spotting it.

THat said, apparently the most common type of MS can spontaneously go into remission, even complete remission. There many cases where a patient thinks they're cured because they don't have a relapse for 20,30, even sometimes 40 years. Does this mean they no longer have MS? No. Would a Dr be able to detect MS during one of these remissions? Not necessarily. It seems medical science can easily explain both cases.

Nonsense. The lesions detectable by an MRI are still there in remission; they don't vanish w/o a trace.

 

[razeontherock]

Remember when I said it doesn't make sense in this situation? We have more than just a "stance". I don't know how many ways to tell you, the Poe's law doesn't apply/make sense/ or is relevant in any way here.

More nonsense from an atheist. Poe's Law was invented on CF, to be applied on CF, where he could contact anyone that said anything. What you have is an apparent inability to understand what is plainly being told to you.

 

[razeontherock]

I didn't actually read what you posted here because it was obvious from the start you didn't answer my question. If you want a conversation it has to be a two-way street. You ask a question, I answer. I ask a question, you dodge. That's not really a conversation I'm willing to have. So, for a second time, I'll ask.

Is your story about the blue house true?
Is the other story about the yellow house true?

Good to see you readily admit you can't grasp what's being said. Have you ever considered that might be why you never got anywhere with the Bible?