Deputies from Homeless Outreach Team Fatally Shoot Black Homeless Man During Struggle Over Jaywalkin

[dogs4thewin]

This is only valid if the premise that policing should be inherently violent is taken to be valid. The guy crossed the road - that's it. That this act escalated to murder is down to the culture of policing in the US.

It is not murder if their side of the story is true. Murder is homicide without an excuse self defense is never murder.

 

[Tom 1]

It is not murder if their side of the story is true. Murder is homicide without an excuse self defense is never murder.

Almost all European countries have armed police. We have mentally ill homeless people, violent criminals, people behaving bizarrely and so on here too. The police have to deal with the same situations, but almost never kill anyone, only when there is absolutely no other resort. The key factor in situations like this is most certainly not ‘oh well he was ill and didn’t do what they said’, it’s the moronically basic attitude of police officers that the first thing to do in any situation is be aggressive.

 

[hedrick]

Almost all European countries have armed police. We have mentally ill homeless people, violent criminals, people behaving bizarrely and so on here too. The police have to deal with the same situations, but almost never kill anyone, only when there is absolutely no other resort. The key factor in situations like this is most certainly not ‘oh well he was ill and didn’t do what they said’, it’s the moronically basic attitude of police officers that the first thing to do in any situation is be aggressive.

Fortunately it's not common, but there are certainly these situations where a traffic stop or jaywalking escalates into a shooting. The one thing that seems in common is that it happens fairly quickly and without backing off. Someone jaywalking is not an imminent danger to the community. It might make sense to take a bit longer, and maybe temporarily back off. You can even afford to let someone like that get away.

The situations I've seen are always ambiguous. It's not murder. Police don't want to kill anyone. The person always responds badly. But people respond badly. The situation gets emotional, and not everyone deals with that right.

 

[hedrick]

What I just suggested is called deescalation. It is common, but not universal, to use that in police training. It callls, among other things, for slowing things down where doin so is safe. There’s some evidence that it reduces injury to be civilians and police. But there’s reason to think that trading has to be followed up with policy and supervisory support. It’s also not the only strategy. NJ has emphasized community involvement. (I note that our leaders do not support defunding police, and are concerned about proper pay for police.)

 

[Tom 1]

Fortunately it's not common, but there are certainly these situations where a traffic stop or jaywalking escalates into a shooting. The one thing that seems in common is that it happens fairly quickly and without backing off. Someone jaywalking is not an imminent danger to the community. It might make sense to take a bit longer, and maybe temporarily back off. You can even afford to let someone like that get away.

The situations I've seen are always ambiguous. It's not murder. Police don't want to kill anyone. The person always responds badly. But people respond badly. The situation gets emotional, and not everyone deals with that right.

People behave bizarrely and aggressively in public, whether because of MH issues, drugs or whatever, all over the world. The US is the only place in the developed world where those people are in danger of being killed by the police. That is entirely down to the behaviour and attitude of police officers. The way they are trained and recruited needs a serious overhaul.

In a country where someone can expect to be sentenced to life simply for being associated with a crime during which a murder was committed, it’s a disturbing double standard to not call the casual killing of some homeless guy murder, just because the people who killed him wear badges. The US can’t seem to get its collective head out of the Hollywood good guys/bad guys mentality when looking at situations like this. Whether or not the police ‘wanted’ to kill this guy, or any of the other unarmed people killed in recent years by the police, is not relevant. Their behaviour lead to his death.

 

[CyberPaladin]

So we instead made things even worse.

In a word no it's not worse as far as the system over all for those with mental health issues in terms of rights, care, integration into society and advocacy have all been greatly improved. Is there more work to be done and do people fall through the cracks absolutely. Compared to the good ole days where they were sent to asylums to be pretty much ignored, forgotten and not cared for at all things are better.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Another example of why so many black men are shot by law enforcement.

They refuse to listen, they resist, they go on the offensive.

Police are not supposed to be judge, jury and executioner. Most police themselves believe that the police, in general, need reforms. Many of their leaders require them to be unnecessarily aggresive, and the majority of the police do not like it (the buck stops at the top); They are supposed to be public servants.
There is also a fleeing felon rule. It's a law. They are not legally allowed to shoot even a known felon in the back, much less any citizen.
They also over-police low-income, mostly minority communities, and see minorities as the enemy, not as human beings, created in God's image.
They need to be retrained, disciplined when they do wrong, and repeat, violent offeneders, within the police department, need to be dismissed and imprisoned.
Is anyone surprised that when black people are regulary stopped, assaulted, and murdered by police that cities burn?
2 Samuel 2: 26
"...knowest not thou it is dangerous to drive people to despair?"
Police stand by and let white supremists carry guns, and torches; they stand by and let white supremists assault peaceful protestors. They allowed that 17 year old kid to walk down the street with a weapon, and then let him go home to his bed, after they KNEW he had just murdered 2 people. Many of the police ARE white supremists.
It is unequal justice under the law.
What if it was you? What if it was your community being treated this way?
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Are you capable of putting yourself in another's shoes?
We still live in a racist society.
Anyone who can watch George Floyd being choked to death, or Grey (?) being shot in the back 7 times ( and he wasn't even involved in the domestic dispute, and yet the vast majority of news sources failed to make this clear), and still defend even the police who do these things, are, in all likelihood, white supremists too.

 

[Searching1God]

Almost all European countries have armed police. We have mentally ill homeless people, violent criminals, people behaving bizarrely and so on here too. The police have to deal with the same situations, but almost never kill anyone, only when there is absolutely no other resort. The key factor in situations like this is most certainly not ‘oh well he was ill and didn’t do what they said’, it’s the moronically basic attitude of police officers that the first thing to do in any situation is be aggressive.

That is a myopic view of the situation. How about taking a bird's eye view instead and put things in context?

There is overall more violence in the US than in Europe. 3 times more: European Union vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats

In the US, black Americans are murdered at 12 times the rate of people in other developed countries. And most of the murders are black on black crimes. From the FBI's Universal Crime Report in 2014; 90% of Black people killed were killed by other Black people.

Within this backdrop of violence, there will be more encounters with police, and yes, more unfortunate incidents of death resulting from these encounters.
That is why my unpopular opinion is that we need to address the crime issue in the black community concurrently with addressing the issue of police brutality. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

 

[Searching1God]

duplicate - deleted

 

[Tom 1]

That is a myopic view of the situation. How about taking a bird's eye view instead and put things in context?

There is overall more violence in the US than in Europe. 3 times more: European Union vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats

In the US, black Americans are murdered at 12 times the rate of people in other developed countries. And most of the murders are black on black crimes. From the FBI's Universal Crime Report in 2014; 90% of Black people killed were killed by other Black people.

Within this backdrop of violence, there will be more encounters with police, and yes, more unfortunate incidents of death resulting from these encounters.
That is why my unpopular opinion is that we need to address the crime issue in the black community concurrently with addressing the issue of police brutality. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

You think? Then you should be able to demonstrate how this caused 2 cops to kill an unarmed, mentally ill man for crossing the road.

 

[Searching1God]

You think? Then you should be able to demonstrate how this caused 2 cops to kill an unarmed, mentally ill man for crossing the road.

Why don't you demonstrate how the cops in your country handle a belligerent and uncooperative mentally ill man? There should be some video floating around to show the rest of the world how Europeans cops subdue mentally ill people without harming them. After all, 40% of Europeans are said to suffer from mental illness.
Nearly 40 percent of Europeans suffer mental illness

 

[Tom 1]

Why don't you demonstrate how the cops in your country handle a belligerent and uncooperative mentally ill man? There should be some video floating around to show the rest of the world how Europeans cops subdue mentally ill people without harming them. After all, 40% of Europeans are said to suffer from mental illness.
Nearly 40 percent of Europeans suffer mental illness

The cops over here employ such crazy and outlandish methods as recognising what the problem is, not assaulting or killing people over minor traffic violations, treating people with respect, involving specialist healthcare staff when necessary, you know, crazy stuff like that that no-one could be expected to think of.

 

[Searching1God]

The cops over here employ such crazy and outlandish methods as recognising what the problem is, not assaulting or killing people over minor traffic violations, treating people with respect, involving specialist healthcare staff when necessary, you know, crazy stuff like that that no-one could be expected to think of.

Show and tell.

Can you post a link of a real life situation where it happens? Surely they have cell phones over there in Europe to record cops and belligerent civilians interactions. Since we are forming opinions based on videos, show us some videos to prove your point.

 

[Tom 1]

Show and tell.

Can you post a link of a real life situation where it happens? Surely they have cell phones over there in Europe to record cops and civilians interactions.

Why would I do that? Do you think European cops are secretly going round assaulting and killing people, but know one knows about it? I've never personally come across vids of cops going about their business, as they don't tend to just randomly attack people for minor infractions I doubt anyone feels the need. If you're into that kind of thing you could probably find something somewhere, if you look hard enough. The only things I can think of are vids posted by drunken idiots complaining about their drunken idiot mate being arrested for fighting or vandalism etc., you could probably find some of those.

 

[Searching1God]

Why would I do that? Do you think European cops are secretly going round assaulting and killing people, but know one knows about it? I've never personally come across vids of cops going about their business, as they don't tend to just randomly attack people for minor infractions I doubt anyone feels the need. If you're into that kind of thing you could probably find something somewhere, if you look hard enough. The only things I can think of are vids posted by drunken idiots complaining about their drunken idiot mate being arrested for fighting or vandalism etc., you could probably find some of those.

I was not being sarcastic (well, maybe just a tad bit...) when I asked for videos. I genuinely wanted to know how cops handle belligerent civilians in your country. Since what is happening to the US is a matter of concern for you, and you compared US cops to European cops, I thought perhaps you might have real life situations you could show as example.

I looked hard, but I don't want to look for a needle in a haystack. If anyone reading this thread know of such videos and can produce them, much appreciated.

 

[Tom 1]

I was not being sarcastic (well, maybe just a tad bit...) when I asked for videos. I genuinely wanted to know how cops handle belligerent civilians in your country. Since what is happening to the US is a matter of concern for you, and you compared US cops to European cops, I thought perhaps you might have real life situations you could show as example.

I looked hard, but I don't want to look for a needle in a haystack. If anyone reading this thread know of such videos and can produce them, much appreciated.

The only thing I’ve seen recently were Romanian cops (Who are armed) successfully handling a group of violent mafiosos and minor league organised crime types armed with machetes and iron bars etc. The cops had gone into their area to arrest a few of them, they took their time over it, took control of the situation step by step, nobody got hurt. Criminals in that kind of scenario who don’t what to back down will behave the same way a pack of dogs will if you back them into a corner and then attack, it’s pretty basic stuff. Aggressive people under stress need to be managed by people who know what they are doing, in the US by contrast the cops’ default mode is aggression, which will always, always lead to conflict, every time. People can’t just reach up and switch off their evolved responses to extreme stress.

 

[cow451]

Another example of why so many black men are shot by law enforcement.

They refuse to listen, they resist, they go on the offensive.

They jaywalk. Lock ‘em up.

 

[cow451]

Here's what I think about it. The guy should have listened to the officers and not try to take control of their weapons,.. but the officers involved sort of overreacted as well.

Sort of....?

 

[cow451]

Why should people get shot over jaywalking?

They’re breaking the law! They have to be shot so they don’t get run over! People sometimes have to be shot to keep them safe! What’s so hard to understand, people?

 

[cow451]

why would someone on a squad named "homeless outreach team" escalate a situation to the point they had to shoot someone? What I saw was a classic "cop looking for a reason" scenario. he said "don't touch me!" and what did the cop KEEP doing? Touching him. Than when he's cranked up enough they jump on him and pretend he's going for one of their guns. Than they shoot him. I'm sure there will be an "investigation" and the result will be:

Maybe because cops keep killing people for jaywalking? Or sleeping? Or shopping? Or driving? Or any number of things all of which end with dead bodies and cops standing around waiting for people to jump in and defend them while blaming the victims for "not instantly doing whatever the cop demands they do!"?


...by someone who's not actually supposed to be killing people for jaywalking.
tulc("homeless outreach team"?)

That’s right. We reach out and either shoot them or lock them up so they can be kept safe. Sometimes tulc is so unreasonable.