Deputies from Homeless Outreach Team Fatally Shoot Black Homeless Man During Struggle Over Jaywalkin

[Tom 1]

My facts came from NPR, not Fox:

More Police Officers Died From Gunfire Than Traffic Incidents In 2018, Report Says

Not "strange"

My opinions are my own, not "strange"...

This thread poses an issue: homeless man shot in altercation with police.

As we ALL know, who have ever once had interactions with the homeless, it's that the majority have serious mental health issues such they cannot manage life at the level of applying for assistance (SSD), both acquiring the medications they need as well as regularly taking them, keeping a roof over their head (goes back to being unable to deal with applying for assistance) etc etc.

This leaves them homeless and uncared for... and means their police interactions are by and large far higher in number than the regular population - many people regularly call the police on the homeless most especially when they are having an episode related to their mental health.

This leaves us with an opportunity to discuss what could have been done to achieve a better outcome than a dead homeless guy...

My first thought is to not leave the homeless alone, homeless and uncared for - all the way around...

That would significantly decrease their interactions with police as a whole, and be something that is actually helpful not "strange".

Demonizing police, which seems to be your only goal... is simply hatefilled left-wing rhetoric and is unhelpful all the way around.

Good day. I'm now putting you on ignore, since you declined to end this line of non-discussion.

You’re avoiding directly addressing the only real point here - policing in the US urgently needs serious reform. You acknowledge this indirectly - your admission that police interactions with vulnerable people ought to be limited is a tacit admission that something is seriously wrong with how the police behave. To anyone outside of the conservative religious bubble, this is glaringly obvious. All the rest of it only represents attempts to ignore this reality and pretend it’s all someone else’s fault, usually the victim’s.

 

[Tom 1]

Demonizing police, which seems to be your only goal... is simply hatefilled left-wing rhetoric and is unhelpful all the way around.

Again, another typical and rather hackneyed mode of avoiding the blatant problems with policing in the US. Pointing out that the US police routinely create situations with the worst possible outcomes is not ‘demonizing’, it is pointing out something that happens in the actual real world, a real thing that needs to be addressed rather than ignored or explained away with disingenuous appeals to some vague set of notions that have little connection with any useful engagement.

 

[Hazelelponi]

avoiding the blatant problems with policing in the US.

I honestly don't believe we have any particular need of police reform...

Back to statistics, police are twice as likely to be killed in the line of duty as they are to kill an unarmed individual. (and far more likely to be seriously injured than to injure another in the course of their duties)

That says by and large police in the main are very careful to assess the situation as accurately as possible in order make the most accurate judgment before firing their weapon, willing to gamble their lives in the attempt not to make an error in judgment.

Plus, if you look at the sheer number of arrests every year, the ones that go right far far outnumber the ones that go wrong.

The issue as I see it, is to be more caring for those who are less able to handle an interaction with police (like the mentally ill) and make certain the justice system isn't the one responsible for their care... the justice system should be about the criminal element of society, and doctors should be the main interaction for those who have mental health issues.

As well as make certain that citizens by and large respect the authority of police, and comply with their instructions during any interactions..

Police exist for our safety... they aren't the enemy. The enemy are those seeking to dismantle society such that we no are no longer adequately protected from the criminal element.

We need more police with a high level of training, not less.

 

[Tom 1]

I honestly don't believe we have any particular need of police reform...

Back to statistics, police are twice as likely to be killed in the line of duty as they are to kill an unarmed individual. (and far more likely to be seriously injured than to injure another in the course of their duties)

That says by and large police in the main are very careful to assess the situation as accurately as possible in order make the most accurate judgment before firing their weapon, willing to gamble their lives in the attempt not to make an error in judgment.

Plus, if you look at the sheer number of arrests every year, the ones that go right far far outnumber the ones that go wrong.

The issue as I see it, is to be more caring for those who are less able to handle an interaction with police (like the mentally ill) and make certain the justice system isn't the one responsible for their care... the justice system should be about the criminal element of society, and doctors should be the main interaction for those who have mental health issues.

As well as make certain that citizens by and large respect the authority of police, and comply with their instructions during any interactions..

Police exist for our safety... they aren't the enemy. The enemy are those seeking to dismantle society such that we no are no longer adequately protected from the criminal element.

We need more police with a high level of training, not less.

That is exactly the point, your police forces need proper training to avoid the most moronic among them murdering people over trivial issues, and a system that ensures they don’t get away with it. Without proper training and accountability things like this will continue to happen, people outraged by it will continue to protest, protests will continue to get out of hand and the whole cycle will continue. Denial is never a useful way to address serious issues like this. The US can learn from countries with more mature and capable leaders, or just keep throwing fuel on the fire while pretending everything is ok.

 

[Nevada Smith]

Despite incidents like this, blacks still support the police.
Black Americans Want Police to Retain Local Presence
What the black community really wants is badly need reform.
"However, the vast majority believe reform is needed, with upward of 90% favoring specific reforms aimed at improving police relations with the communities they serve and preventing or punishing abusive police behavior."

I think the white community should be calling for reforms as well. When a mother is having to cope with a 13 year old autistic boy, she didn't call the police so they could shoot him
Autistic boy, 13, is shot and injured by Salt Lake City cops | Daily Mail Online

This is your typical defund the police rally. Notice that most defund supporters are young white hooligans that want to police presences reduced so they are free to practice their lawlessness.
Minneapolis Mayor is BOOED out of a protest after refusing to defund the city's police | Daily Mail Online

 

[Searching1God]

As I watched the video and I observed the attitude of the homeless man, I said to myself, it is not going to end well. He was obviously not cooperating with police orders and seemed determined to do his own thing.

Then the physical tussle on the ground sealed his fate.

Perhaps if the cops only had batons/sticks and no guns, this man would still be alive. But do we really want to take guns away from cops?

We can sit here and blame the cops for this man's death, but what is it exactly that we would have wanted the cops to do when a civilian is uncooperative and belligerent? Just say, ok man, nevermind! and walk away? If cops start walking away from people who will not obey orders, what will happen to law and order?

Maybe people who truly believe there is a better way to do policing should join the police force to make it better.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

We can sit here and blame the cops for this man's death, but what is it exactly that we would have wanted the cops to do when a civilian is uncooperative and belligerent?

If two officers can’t restrain an unarmed homeless guy without killing him perhaps we want them to get better training. Just a thought.

 

[Searching1God]

If two officers can’t restrain an unarmed homeless guy without killing him perhaps we want them to get better training. Just a thought.

That's a good thought.

But these two officers have guns that the unarmed homeless man can get a hold of while they are tussling. This injects another level of danger that has to be on the mind of the officers while they are trying to restrain him.

I have taken martial arts in the past, and one thing I know is unless both officers are martial art experts, restraining someone is not as easy as it seems. I am not sure what kind of training you would suggest that would guarantee 2 men can restrain 1 combative man safely.

 

[April_Rose]

If two officers can’t restrain an unarmed homeless guy without killing him perhaps we want them to get better training. Just a thought.

If he hadn't tried to grab for their gun they probably wouldn't have even tried to. Just a thought.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Another example of why so many black men are shot by law enforcement.

They refuse to listen, they resist, they go on the offensive.

It's not just blacks though. I worked at a homeless shelter, and any given person could be volatile. I've seen some people give the death stare simply for closing the doors on them (after curfew, when families were already asleep). It seems most of them were drunk and belligerent though.. so that's something to consider.

 

[Charlie24]

It's not just blacks though. I worked at a homeless shelter, and any given person could be volatile. I've seen some (non black) people give the death stare at me simply for closing the doors on them (after curfew, when families were already asleep). It seems most of them were drunk and belligerent though.. so that's something to consider.

That is true and a good point.

It seems to me there are a handful of leftist groups and the media that are making it a black issue. I wonder if there is a political agenda hidden in there somewhere by the media? Of course that couldn't be true, the media is impartial, only in search of the truth. Right?

 

[Pathfinder627]

Of course that couldn't be true, the media is impartial, only in search of the truth. Right?

The fact that they covered up the depravity of Jeffrey Epstein for years and still insist that he killed himself should answer that question.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

If he hadn't tried to grab for their gun they probably wouldn't have even tried to. Just a thought.

Which we have no evidence of at all. Expect the statement of the people who shot an unarmed man.

But sure absolutely do believe them.

Who would think of a reason why they would lie?

I mean certainly people are willing to go to jail or lose their jobs because they goof up instead of making up stories.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Why should people get shot over jaywalking?

The fact that he was jaywalking was not the point. It was how he handled it. He was not shot for jaywalking he was shot for resisting and maybe attacking the officers. He could have been accused of jaywalking or murder what he was accused of is not the point it is how he chose to handle the contact afterwards. Now, this does not mean that there are not times when officers overreact black white whatever race this is saying that why the police made contact with him is less important ( for the purposes of force ( deadly or otherwise) than how he acted towards the contact.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Not saying he was particularly smart. Just saying we have zero reason to believe officers unlikely tales either.

There must be tremendous pressure on those officers and their department to come up with justifiable reason why two cops shot another unarmed black man considering the current political climate.

You said let us hope they had body cameras on does that mean you would be "OK" if the body cameras showed their side of events? Look, when the officers are wrong they are wrong and should be punished but body cameras go both ways.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You don’t seem to have any trouble blaming the guy who got shot for his own death.

Here is the difference IF the set of facts are true that the officers are claiming his actions AT the time caused his death. In other words, how he reacted when approched/questioned caused his death. If you react in a violent or threatening matter and give a person (officer or not reason to believe that you mean them harm they have the right to defend themselves. If the threat is such that they reasonabely fear death or great bodily injury to themselves or another they have the right to use deadly force.

 

[grasping the after wind]

And those institutions had horrible track records of poor care and neglect.

So we instead made things even worse.

 

[April_Rose]

The fact that he was jaywalking was not the point. It was how he handled it. He was not shot for jaywalking he was shot for resisting and maybe attacking the officers. He could have been accused of jaywalking or murder what he was accused of is not the point t is how he chose to handle the contact afterwards. Now, this does not mean that there are not times when officers overreact black white whatever race this is saying that why the police made contact with him is less important ( for the purposes of force ( deadly or otherwise) than how he acted towards the contact.

Oh I definitely agree with you, but there's also no doubt in my mind that the officers overreacted.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

You said let us hope they had body cameras on does that mean you would be "OK" if the body cameras showed their side of events? Look, when the officers are wrong they are wrong and should be punished but body cameras go both ways.

Yes, I would be OK as far as their reasons for going to the use of lethal force though I would still question their professionalism for not getting hold of suspects hands when they outnumbered him 2 to 1.

But yeah three guys being top of each other those body cams are not going to show anything when one officer says he felt the suspects hand on his gun holster or something to that effect.

 

[Tom 1]

Here is the difference IF the set of facts ae true that the officers are claiming his actions AT the time caused his death. In other words, how he reacted when approched/questioned caused his death. If you react in a violent or threatening matter and give a person (officer or not reason to believe that you mean them harm they have the right to defend themselves. If the threat is such that they reasonabely fear death or great bodily injury to themselves or another they have the right to use deadly force.

This is only valid if the premise that policing should be inherently violent is taken to be valid. The guy crossed the road - that's it. That this act escalated to murder is down to the culture of policing in the US.