Deliverance Ministries, Binding of Satan & Casting out Demons

[Dan1988]

So you now admit demons can teach Christians then?

But according to you, that is completely impossible! Here's what you said in post No30-

"Satan is the prince of this world, but he has nothing to do with Christians because we are not of this world so He is powerless against us and His lies and deception have never fooled a single Christian in history."​

So either you were wrong in the above statement (from postNo30), or wrong in the opening statements here (from postNo37).

Take your pick, you can't have it both ways.

According to your accusations, I have fallen for doctrines of demons, and therefore must be a reprobate.
FYI, you are not supposed to make that sort of accusation against fellow forum members.
But if you ask nicely, I will forgive you.

If Jesus is sovereign over all things without exception, how come I am free to disagree with you?
Truth is, that both you and I are sovereign on our belief and our unbelief. We are the ones who make that choice, not God. That's why Jesus constantly blamed the disciples for their unbelief.
Yes, it was their unbelief, they owned it and could change it if they chose to believe.

First of all you jumped to a conclusion which I never claimed in the first place.
I stated that no Christian has ever been deceived by demonic doctrine, and I stand by that because it is bibllically correct.
I didn't say that Christians can't be hindered and bothered by demonic doctrine, but that's very different from being deceived to the point where we lose our faith in God and end up in hell.

Jesus warned us that we would be attacked with powerful false doctrine and persecution. But He also said that He who endures to the end shall be saved, this enduring can only mean that those who hear His voice will not be deceived to the point of losing their faith.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice". He also said that "you don't receive the truth, because there is no truth in you". This can only mean that they don't have Jesus in them because Jesus said "I am the truth" so the truth is not something we find after a long study at university. It's Jesus Christ Himself and if He chose to dwell in you then you have the truth and eternal life, apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus didn't make any exceptions when he said "nothing" this means we can't even make a choice to/ surrender our lives to Him unless He draws us to Himself.

I would never say someone is a reprobate, since only God knows whom He has predestined. For all I know Hither and Stalin may have repented on their death beds. I was just trying to say that evil spirits can't cause a child of God who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them to lose their salvation, because it's God who gave it and He is the One who preserves it. Satan would easily outsmart any Christian and destroy them easily if the battle was just between us and Him.

 

[jhjhh]

Evangelical Churches like mine, teach that Jesus only gave the authority to cast out Demons to the apostles alone. My Church teaches that we have no power or authority to cast out demons or bind Satan in any way.

Ignorance. So you see verses like mark16:17 quoted where it clearly tells about this subject. There is written those that believe. And who are those that believe? not me, not you?

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mark 9:38-39 KJV

So there are someone casting out devils in jesus name yet as i understand it he is not one of disciples.

What you think of healing the sick, or speaking with tongues or prophecying or doing miracles? Do you deny these things aswell? Not belong to us?

 

[Francis Drake]

First of all you jumped to a conclusion which I never claimed in the first place.
I stated that no Christian has ever been deceived by demonic doctrine, and I stand by that because it is bibllically correct.

But you clearly accused me of being deceived by demonic doctrine!

I didn't say that Christians can't be hindered and bothered by demonic doctrine, but that's very different from being deceived to the point where we lose our faith in God and end up in hell.

This argument was not about losing salvation, it was about Christians falling for doctrines of demons!
But its a good policy, when you're losing an argument, just change the goal posts and pretend your words mean something different!

These are your words from post No30 again.-
"Satan is the prince of this world, but he has nothing to do with Christians because we are not of this world so He is powerless against us and His lies and deception have never fooled a single Christian in history."
That sounds very straight forward to me. You cannot pretend it doesn't mean what it says, especially when you have effectively repeated it several times over in other posts.

You cannot escape that you accused me of being deceived!
I really don't mind though, I can return the complement, as in my mind it is you who is following doctrines of demons.

So would you agree that one of us is deluded and following doctrines of demons?

Jesus warned us that we would be attacked with powerful false doctrine and persecution. But He also said that He who endures to the end shall be saved, this enduring can only mean that those who hear His voice will not be deceived to the point of losing their faith.

Firstly, your quote, 'enduring to the end', refers to those who are going through the Tribulation who will be rescued when Jesus returns. It's not about today.

Secondly, you are wrong about Christians who lose their faith.
1Tim1v18I commit to you this charge, Timothy, my child, according to the prophecies going before as to you, that by them you might wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience, which some, having cast away, have caused a shipwreck concerning the faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme.
You cannot cast away something you never had, therefore these two men were clearly Christian brothers who previously possessed faith and a good conscience.
At some stage they went astray and Paul excludes them.
That does not mean they lost their salvation and end up in hell. They just bear the fruits of error until they repent.

Paul takes similar action against the Christian fornicator in Corinth.-
1Cor5v4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again you will note that handing him over to Satan is not being consigned to hell! In both cases they had walked away from faithfulness into sin, and in both cases it was about disciplining the flesh.

In both cases it's clear that Christians can lose their faith, and doing so is their own choice.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice". He also said that "you don't receive the truth, because there is no truth in you". This can only mean that they don't have Jesus in them because Jesus said "I am the truth" so the truth is not something we find after a long study at university. It's Jesus Christ Himself and if He chose to dwell in you then you have the truth and eternal life, apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus didn't make any exceptions when he said "nothing" this means we can't even make a choice to/ surrender our lives to Him unless He draws us to Himself.

You are derailing the thread sideways into Calvinism, and I'd rather not enter that argument as it's completely fruitless.

I would never say someone is a reprobate, since only God knows whom He has predestined. For all I know Hither and Stalin may have repented on their death beds. I was just trying to say that evil spirits can't cause a child of God who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them to lose their salvation, because it's God who gave it and He is the One who preserves it.

But having demons does not mean you've lost your salvation. That's why casting demons out is aimed at God's children, not the reprobates.

Satan would easily outsmart any Christian and destroy them easily if the battle was just between us and Him.

I've never said the battle is just between us and Satan.
I've quoted this verse before. Please look at it.
Matt12v28But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Despite being the Son of God, Jesus did not cast demons out by his own power, but cast them out by the Spirit of God.
In fact everything Jesus did was by the Spirit of God, andit is the same power he gave to the church to defeat Satan and his demons.

 

[jhjhh]

//Actually could have wrote my previous comment without quoting your writing, because it was more like overall answer to this conversation. So handle it like it was not targeted to any specific part of text.

 

[Dan1988]

But you clearly accused me of being deceived by demonic doctrine!

This argument was not about losing salvation, it was about Christians falling for doctrines of demons!
But its a good policy, when you're losing an argument, just change the goal posts and pretend your words mean something different!

These are your words from post No30 again.-
"Satan is the prince of this world, but he has nothing to do with Christians because we are not of this world so He is powerless against us and His lies and deception have never fooled a single Christian in history."
That sounds very straight forward to me. You cannot pretend it doesn't mean what it says, especially when you have effectively repeated it several times over in other posts.

You cannot escape that you accused me of being deceived!
I really don't mind though, I can return the complement, as in my mind it is you who is following doctrines of demons.

So would you agree that one of us is deluded and following doctrines of demons?

Firstly, your quote, 'enduring to the end', refers to those who are going through the Tribulation who will be rescued when Jesus returns. It's not about today.

Secondly, you are wrong about Christians who lose their faith.
1Tim1v18I commit to you this charge, Timothy, my child, according to the prophecies going before as to you, that by them you might wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience, which some, having cast away, have caused a shipwreck concerning the faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme.
You cannot cast away something you never had, therefore these two men were clearly Christian brothers who previously possessed faith and a good conscience.
At some stage they went astray and Paul excludes them.
That does not mean they lost their salvation and end up in hell. They just bear the fruits of error until they repent.

Paul takes similar action against the Christian fornicator in Corinth.-
1Cor5v4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again you will note that handing him over to Satan is not being consigned to hell! In both cases they had walked away from faithfulness into sin, and in both cases it was about disciplining the flesh.

In both cases it's clear that Christians can lose their faith, and doing so is their own choice.
You are derailing the thread sideways into Calvinism, and I'd rather not enter that argument as it's completely fruitless.

But having demons does not mean you've lost your salvation. That's why casting demons out is aimed at God's children, not the reprobates.

I've never said the battle is just between us and Satan.
I've quoted this verse before. Please look at it.
Matt12v28But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Despite being the Son of God, Jesus did not cast demons out by his own power, but cast them out by the Spirit of God.
In fact everything Jesus did was by the Spirit of God, andit is the same power he gave to the church to defeat Satan and his demons.

Those examples you mentioned of Christians being handed over to Satan for the purpose of disciplining and the destruction of the flesh, don't mean that they were deceived by the doctrine of demons. So we can't use them as examples of Christians who were deceived, they were simply hindered from receiving the gospel.
To deceive someone means you succeeded in deceiving them and causing them to reject the truth and thus bring about God's judgement upon them.

I have made it clear all along that it's impossible to deceive God's elect, yes demons will hinder us, accuse us, afflict us and persecute us but they can never convince us to reject the gospel and stop us from being saved.

So it all comes down to how we apply the scriptures, God said that "Nobody is able to snatch them out of My hand" but you say demons can so with all due respect I must reject your interpretation and stick with what God said about the matter.

 

[Francis Drake]

Those examples you mentioned of Christians being handed over to Satan for the purpose of disciplining and the destruction of the flesh, don't mean that they were deceived by the doctrine of demons. So we can't use them as examples of Christians who were deceived, they were simply hindered from receiving the gospel.

You have absolutely no evidence of that.
The context is vividly clear that they had already been walking in the gospel, and then foolishly wandered away from it.

To deceive someone means you succeeded in deceiving them and causing them to reject the truth and thus bring about God's judgement upon them.
I have made it clear all along that it's impossible to deceive God's elect,

Show me a single scripture that says God's elect can't be deceived.
And I can show you many which warn that we can.

yes demons will hinder us, accuse us, afflict us and persecute us but they can never convince us to reject the gospel and stop us from being saved.

Please stop inventing straw man arguments.
I have never ever claimed that deception will cause people to lose their eternal life in Christ.

So it all comes down to how we apply the scriptures, God said that "Nobody is able to snatch them out of My hand" but you say demons can so with all due respect I must reject your interpretation and stick with what God said about the matter.

I don't want to divert this thread onto an OSAS track, but you keep attributing stuff to me that I've never ever said, and definitely do not believe.
To quote you, God said that "Nobody is able to snatch them out of My hand"
Please get this straight, I have believed that truth for over 40 years, so can we please call it quits on that issue and put it to bed?

The problem with your knee jerk responses to that single issue is that it seems to haze your mind, and you miss what I actually said.
So please can we now continue this discussion, argument, fight, brawl etc. on a friendly basis without you bashing me over the head about losing your salvation?

 

[Francis Drake]

//Actually could have wrote my previous comment without quoting your writing, because it was more like overall answer to this conversation. So handle it like it was not targeted to any specific part of text.

I don't understand this one bit. Can you explain please.

 

[jhjhh]

I don't understand this one bit. Can you explain please.

I Quoted dan1988 message when writing my comment allthough i think it would have been better if i wouldnt have done that.

 

[Francis Drake]

I Quoted dan1988 message when writing my comment allthough i think it would have been better if i wouldnt have done that.

Before commenting on anything, click the reply tab underneath, (as I did on yours) and then their message would appear above yours. Just like on this reply to yours.
It makes it far easier to understand who you are talking to.

 

[jhjhh]

Before commenting on anything, click the reply tab underneath, (as I did on yours) and then their message would appear above yours. Just like on this reply to yours.
It makes it far easier to understand who you are talking to.

I wrote: "my previous comment" , shouldn't be too hard to understand. Is the devil working over time.

 

[Dan1988]

You have absolutely no evidence of that.
The context is vividly clear that they had already been walking in the gospel, and then foolishly wandered away from it.

Show me a single scripture that says God's elect can't be deceived.
And I can show you many which warn that we can.

Please stop inventing straw man arguments.
I have never ever claimed that deception will cause people to lose their eternal life in Christ.


I don't want to divert this thread onto an OSAS track, but you keep attributing stuff to me that I've never ever said, and definitely do not believe.
To quote you, God said that "Nobody is able to snatch them out of My hand"
Please get this straight, I have believed that truth for over 40 years, so can we please call it quits on that issue and put it to bed?

The problem with your knee jerk responses to that single issue is that it seems to haze your mind, and you miss what I actually said.
So please can we now continue this discussion, argument, fight, brawl etc. on a friendly basis without you bashing me over the head about losing your salvation?

So we actually agree on the bible doctrine of "eternal security", we just see it from different perspectives.
Here's just one verse for you to dismantle and apply it according to your view. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.

Please explain what "If it were possible" actually means. I have always understood this to mean that it's impossible, but if you feel you can make it say something other than what it clearly says please be my guest.

 

[NBB]

So we actually agree on the bible doctrine of "eternal security", we just see it from different perspectives.
Here's just one verse for you to dismantle and apply it according to your view. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.

Please explain what "If it were possible" actually means. I have always understood this to mean that it's impossible, but if you feel you can make it say something other than what it clearly says please be my guest.

Good luck for you that you made it to christ without spiritual problems lets say.
But others come loaded with them, and they just don't vanish when they convert, sometimes an intervention is needed. Sincerely...
So those people who said they were free of this and that and they were believers? you think they are inventing things? or that they are not christians?.
It doesn't matter if the evil sprits are inside, the christian is not less christian or more evil for that, also the Holy spirit and them don't mix up or something.

Sure it gives a bad impression, but the truth is not very pleasant sometimes.

 

[Dan1988]

Good luck for you that you made it to christ without spiritual problems lets say.
But others come loaded with them, and they just don't vanish when they convert, sometimes an intervention is needed. Sincerely...
So those people who said they were free of this and that and they were believers? you think they are inventing things? or that they are not christians?.
It doesn't matter if the evil sprits are inside, the christian is not less christian or more evil for that, also the Holy spirit and them don't mix up or something.

Sure it gives a bad impression, but the truth is not very pleasant sometimes.

You have misunderstood what I've tried to proclaim, regarding this subject. But it's OK because this subject is very controversial and there's a lot of disagreement within the Church over it.

I should mention the fact that I was misled and deceived by the "doctrine of Demons" for many years. So I was totally lost and under the power of Satan.
I actually made a pact with Satan where He would give me lots of girls, fornication, money, power, drugs, forbidden knowledge and talent. Of'course I had to do some very sinful things for Him in exchange.

After around 10 years of living like a Devil, I ended up in a very sick and depraved spiritual and physical state. I just wanted to go back to the way I was before, but Satan reminded me that we made a deal and that I was beyond redemption because of the grievous nature of the sins I had committed.

I had sunk into deep despair and I was convinced that that there was no hope for me. As I was laying on the floor dying from a drug overdose, a Demon stood over me laughing at my demise. I was very short of breath due to the heroin overdose but I called out to Jesus with what felt like my last breath. The Demon ran away and I felt a powerful but peaceful presence, comforting me and helping me breathe.

Since that day, God has been giving me the grace to resist the temptation to fornicate, use heroin, alcohol and cigarettes. I didn't instantly become a perfectly clean and sinless Saint, the battle to resist the Devil continues and it will continue until I receive my glorified sinless eternal body in the next life.

The Bible doesn't say that anyone who struggles with false demonic doctrine or temptation, is condemned. The only sin which condemns a person to the lake of fire is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The reason I believe in "election and predestination" is many of my friends have died in their sin. They never called upon the Lord when they were being deceived or oppressed or possessed by evil Spirits. I was a much worse sinner than some of those who died in their sin, so why was I saved and they weren't. Some went to Sunday school with me when we were kids so they heard the gospel.

my question to those who don't believe in election and predestination, is why do some of the worlds top minds reject the gospel. Most of the brightest people throughout history, have rejected the gospel as foolishness. So we can see it has nothing to do with how well we can understand things. The Bible says that God chooses the simple and foolish things to put to shame the wise men of this world.

God is not restricted by our level of depravity or how far down we have fallen, if He chooses to save someone He does. So even if we have been led astray by evil spirits and seemingly deceived, God will bring us back if it is His will.

 

[Francis Drake]

So we actually agree on the bible doctrine of "eternal security", we just see it from different perspectives.

Yippee!
I get enough hammering from others for having the gall to believe such 'heresy'!

Here's just one verse for you to dismantle and apply it according to your view. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.

Please explain what "If it were possible" actually means. I have always understood this to mean that it's impossible, but if you feel you can make it say something other than what it clearly says please be my guest.

"If possible" means exactly what it says in normal English, ie. maybe or maybe not!

If possible, I'd like to persuade you to believe my argument. ie. maybe I will, maybe not!

If you check the other location where those two words appear in scripture, it always means maybe/maybe not!-
Romans12v18If possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

Acts20v16Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, because he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.

Acts27v39When it was day, they did not recognize the land; but they observed a bay with a beach, onto which they planned to run the ship if possible.


If the elect cannot be deceived, then there would be no need for Jesus to mention this verse at all. It becomes completely pointless and misleading. But reality shows that Jesus gave it as a warning to alert the elect that they are seriously at risk of deception.

 

[Francis Drake]

You have misunderstood what I've tried to proclaim, regarding this subject. But it's OK because this subject is very controversial and there's a lot of disagreement within the Church over it.

I should mention the fact that I was misled and deceived by the "doctrine of Demons" for many years. So I was totally lost and under the power of Satan.
I actually made a pact with Satan where He would give me lots of girls, fornication, money, power, drugs, forbidden knowledge and talent. Of'course I had to do some very sinful things for Him in exchange.

After around 10 years of living like a Devil, I ended up in a very sick and depraved spiritual and physical state. I just wanted to go back to the way I was before, but Satan reminded me that we made a deal and that I was beyond redemption because of the grievous nature of the sins I had committed.

I had sunk into deep despair and I was convinced that that there was no hope for me. As I was laying on the floor dying from a drug overdose, a Demon stood over me laughing at my demise. I was very short of breath due to the heroin overdose but I called out to Jesus with what felt like my last breath. The Demon ran away and I felt a powerful but peaceful presence, comforting me and helping me breathe.

Since that day, God has been giving me the grace to resist the temptation to fornicate, use heroin, alcohol and cigarettes. I didn't instantly become a perfectly clean and sinless Saint, the battle to resist the Devil continues and it will continue until I receive my glorified sinless eternal body in the next life.

Thanks for an excellent testimony Dan.

The Bible doesn't say that anyone who struggles with false demonic doctrine or temptation, is condemned. The only sin which condemns a person to the lake of fire is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit only refers to those who reject the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.
Paul describes them here-.
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
In the above, Paul makes it clear that all men have been given, by the Holy Spirit, all that they need to surrender their lives to the Lord.
The blasphemers are those that refuse to surrender, and at the judgement they will be without excuse.

The reason I believe in "election and predestination" is many of my friends have died in their sin. They never called upon the Lord when they were being deceived or oppressed or possessed by evil Spirits.
I was a much worse sinner than some of those who died in their sin, so why was I saved and they weren't. Some went to Sunday school with me when we were kids so they heard the gospel.

But you don't know what happened when they died, where they ended up.
According to your above testimony, you were already a believer before you turned to rebellion. If you hadn't repented during that last overdose, you would have died in your body, but as a born again son of God, your spirit would have been received by the Lord as his son.
Likewise with your friends who died, those who received Christ at some previous time before they went astray, they will now be with the Lord.

my question to those who don't believe in election and predestination, is why do some of the worlds top minds reject the gospel. Most of the brightest people throughout history, have rejected the gospel as foolishness. So we can see it has nothing to do with how well we can understand things. The Bible says that God chooses the simple and foolish things to put to shame the wise men of this world.

That's why Christ told his disciples that they would never see the kingdom of Heaven unless they came as a little child. Sadly, they church demands we come as an adult, with all the theological bells and whistles!

God is not restricted by our level of depravity or how far down we have fallen, if He chooses to save someone He does. So even if we have been led astray by evil spirits and seemingly deceived, God will bring us back if it is His will.

I disagree, in your drug laden rebellion, it was your free choice to call out to the Lord.
The application of man's freewill fits everything you describe in your testimony, far better than your Calvinism.

 

[Dan1988]

Thanks for an excellent testimony Dan.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit only refers to those who reject the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.
Paul describes them here-.
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
In the above, Paul makes it clear that all men have been given, by the Holy Spirit, all that they need to surrender their lives to the Lord.
The blasphemers are those that refuse to surrender, and at the judgement they will be without excuse.

But you don't know what happened when they died, where they ended up.
According to your above testimony, you were already a believer before you turned to rebellion. If you hadn't repented during that last overdose, you would have died in your body, but as a born again son of God, your spirit would have been received by the Lord as his son.
Likewise with your friends who died, those who received Christ at some previous time before they went astray, they will now be with the Lord.

That's why Christ told his disciples that they would never see the kingdom of Heaven unless they came as a little child. Sadly, they church demands we come as an adult, with all the theological bells and whistles!

I disagree, in your drug laden rebellion, it was your free choice to call out to the Lord.
The application of man's freewill fits everything you describe in your testimony, far better than your Calvinism.

The Church has always been divided into many different denominations, because they all interpret scripture differently.
I don't expect us to reach a consensus, since the most learned Bible scholars and theologians have always disagreed with each other throughout Church history. So we can't expect to find many garden variety Christians who agree with each other.

Thankfully God doesn't judge anyone for holding to false doctrine, most Christians stay within their particular denomination for life. We see this every time we go door knocking, Christians of all denominations say things like "I was born a Catholic and I will die a Catholic" or whatever other denomination they may have been born into.

Most denominations teach that there is no salvation outside of their denomination. I was taught that same doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church and my Greek friends were taught the same thing in their Orthodox Church. The fact that most denominations are vehemently opposed to each others doctrine and theology and make all kinds of accusations of heresy, means they can't all be teaching the truth of God's Word.

I believe God won't judge anyone for holding on to their "false religion", but He will judge those who knowing deceived their flock. God said, "He who is given much, from him much is expected and he who is given little, little is expected".
Not every Christian is expected to be a Bible scholar or a great theologian, this is why God appointed shepherds to shepherd the flock of sheep. so He won't punish a sheep who was led astray by a false shepherd.

 

[jhjhh]

The Church has always been divided into many different denominations, because they all interpret scripture differently.
I don't expect us to reach a consensus, since the most learned Bible scholars and theologians have always disagreed with each other throughout Church history. So we can't expect to find many garden variety Christians who agree with each other.

Thankfully God doesn't judge anyone for holding to false doctrine, most Christians stay within their particular denomination for life. We see this every time we go door knocking, Christians of all denominations say things like "I was born a Catholic and I will die a Catholic" or whatever other denomination they may have been born into.

Most denominations teach that there is no salvation outside of their denomination. I was taught that same doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church and my Greek friends were taught the same thing in their Orthodox Church. The fact that most denominations are vehemently opposed to each others doctrine and theology and make all kinds of accusations of heresy, means they can't all be teaching the truth of God's Word.

I believe God won't judge anyone for holding on to their "false religion", but He will judge those who knowing deceived their flock. God said, "He who is given much, from him much is expected and he who is given little, little is expected".
Not every Christian is expected to be a Bible scholar or a great theologian, this is why God appointed shepherds to shepherd the flock of sheep. so He won't punish a sheep who was led astray by a false shepherd.

Sound doctrine is important.

17Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18 NKJV

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV

10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Titus 1:10-14 KJV

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2:12-16 KJV

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Cor 11:3-4 KJV

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8 KJV

 

[NBB]

I had 'ocd' intrusive thoughts, they went with something identical to what deliverance ministries do, just God showing the spirit to you, God showed it to me *it was 'inside'* and casted it out with the name of Jesus.

 

[Francis Drake]

The Church has always been divided into many different denominations, because they all interpret scripture differently.
I don't expect us to reach a consensus, since the most learned Bible scholars and theologians have always disagreed with each other throughout Church history. So we can't expect to find many garden variety Christians who agree with each other.

Thankfully God doesn't judge anyone for holding to false doctrine, most Christians stay within their particular denomination for life. We see this every time we go door knocking, Christians of all denominations say things like "I was born a Catholic and I will die a Catholic" or whatever other denomination they may have been born into.

Most denominations teach that there is no salvation outside of their denomination. I was taught that same doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church and my Greek friends were taught the same thing in their Orthodox Church. The fact that most denominations are vehemently opposed to each others doctrine and theology and make all kinds of accusations of heresy, means they can't all be teaching the truth of God's Word.

I believe God won't judge anyone for holding on to their "false religion", but He will judge those who knowing deceived their flock. God said, "He who is given much, from him much is expected and he who is given little, little is expected".
Not every Christian is expected to be a Bible scholar or a great theologian, this is why God appointed shepherds to shepherd the flock of sheep. so He won't punish a sheep who was led astray by a false shepherd.

Gosh, that sounds pretty normal.
Now that we have agreed on all this, can we go back to the thread and discuss the OP in friendly opposition. Dunno where to start though, but just feel we haven't finished.

 

[Dan1988]

Sound doctrine is important.

17Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18 NKJV

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV

10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Titus 1:10-14 KJV

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2:12-16 KJV

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Cor 11:3-4 KJV

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8 KJV

All of the above scriptures are great exhortations and references, but the problem of rightly interpreting them still remains. How can the average Christian know which interpretation is the correct one, when there are countless different interpretations being presented to the flocks in all the different denominations.

Most Christians change their view several times over during their lives, so there's disagreement among members in a local Church let alone with other denominations.

The Gospel has caused the most division, every denomination preaches a different gospel. We have so many seeker friendly Churches, who preach a gospel which doesn't offend anyone. So you can continue living any lifestyle you wish and add Jesus to your life as a buddy to help you in times of trouble.

Churches now embrace everyone, who cares to join them. I left a Church where a visitor kept swearing, I approached the pastor and told him that the man was using profane language while children were in close proximity. The pastor told me that the man was recently released from prison after a long sentence, where swearing is normal so we need to give him time to adjust. The pastor said we're not legalist's here, we accept everyone just as Jesus kept company with prostitutes and other outcasts of society.

The pastors mission was to get people to come into his Church and then slowly introduce them to the gospel. He said the "fire and brimstone" preaching wouldn't work in his area because there was a large LGBT community there. So he always preaches about the love of God, because those people wouldn't endure preaching about judgement or God's wrath.

The gospel can be presented in many different ways, so much so that it becomes a completely different message from Church to Church. So it's easy to convince people who haven't studied the whole bible that your particular gospel is the right one, since most people find the Bible extremely difficult to understand as it seems to contradict itself at so many points.