Defunding Planned Parenthood

[MikeK]

the same justification could have been said for Nazi Germany
"well yeah, they kill a lot of people, but wow, look at those nifty roads they built"

Or "yeah, the Southern States abandoned the Union and attacked the United States, starting a war that led to so much suffering, chiefly out of a desire to maintain the "right" to buy and sell blacks as slaves, but there is so much of their culture that we should celebrate."

 

[MikeK]

Hint: if, instead of talking about defunding PP, the talk had been of beginning funding a range of other agencies to provide the needed services, and a plan to shift all that funding and work across, transitioned over a realistic timeframe, you'd get a lot less negative reaction.

If we funded health care and screening (not including abortions) for all people without regard to their ability to pay, we would completely remove PP's arguments and they would be nothing but abortion clinics, and much easier to defeat. Shockingly, the so-called pro-life movement is relatively uninterested in creating a health care system modeled after the best in the world. Easier to carry gruesome pictures about and get in bed with evil politicians than it is to open our wallets and demand real change, I guess.

 

[Armoured]

If we funded health care and screening (not including abortions) for all people without regard to their ability to pay, we would completely remove PP's arguments and they would be nothing but abortion clinics, and much easier to defeat. Shockingly, the so-called pro-life movement is relatively uninterested in creating a health care system modeled after the best in the world. Easier to carry gruesome pictures about and get in bed with evil politicians than it is to open our wallets and demand real change, I guess.

Implanon for every 16 year old girl and ongoing until one opts out would eliminate popular need for abortion over night. Goodluck getting so called "right to lifers" to support that idea, too.

 

[Fantine]

There is something about urbanization that makes families smaller, and this began in the nineteenth century, during the industrial revolution, long before the pill was invented.

Having just returned from Asia, where there are pretty much cities and rural areas and not much in between, it seems that the impetus for small families probably comes from the people themselves. They love children and I saw lots of children being carried by their moms in little snuggli's, but it's difficult to have a large family in a large city, using public transportation, living in apartments.

I was told that in Seoul every spring the "yellow dust" rolls in from China (I think it's probably in China year round) and that it permeates the skin. People will wear masks over their faces and long sleeves to avoid it. (Luckily, we only visited Seoul for three days in the summer).

Maybe this break in population increase was necessary (Korea is trying to encourage births, too) so that countries had time to figure out what to do about pollution--for example--before doubling a population that would die young because of constant exposure to it.

Many countries have learned that discouraging families has had a bad effect, but are they going to encourage families of three or more? Uh-uh... Would it be good for the world if every couple had three or more children? Uh-uh.

 

[MikeK]

Unfortunately, greed has been cemented into our culture - greed is both the reason for abortions and the reason that we are not providing the education, healthcare and other support that could make PP irrelevant. In the 1920s we had not-for profit

 

[frenchdefense]

Unfortunately, greed has been cemented into our culture - greed is both the reason for abortions and the reason that we are not providing the education, healthcare and other support that could make PP irrelevant. In the 1920s we had not-for profit

Look Mikey, I hate to call you out because you're a good friend of mine but I'd be interested in a citation on the greed being a reason for abortions comment.

 

[MikeK]

Look Mikey, I hate to call you out because you're a good friend of mine but I'd be interested in a citation on the greed being a reason for abortions comment.

Sure thing:

https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

The primary reasons cited for getting abortions are that the child would interfere with the Mother's finances, goals, relationships or that the Mother was in a bad relationship or was single. As my grandfather died when my Mother was very young, leaving nothing behind, I know the sacrifices strong women like my Grandmother and countless other women make to raise children alone. It isn't ideal, but it is very doable and to kill a child because they father is a deadbeat is a greedy thing to do. Financial concerns are a biggie when it comes to influencing women to kill their children. In this country, the poor have it tough - but they do not have it so tough as to warrant abortion, that's greed talking. The typical woman who seeks an abortion, in spite of what they claim, lives above the poverty line. The women who seek abortions generally do so to maintain a certain level of comfort in their lives.

That is not to say that greedy corperations, and greedy Catholics like me aren't also to blame for abortions. We have built a society where it is preferable to obtain or maintain treasure for ourselves than it is to live true lives of service and fight to give every person what we most want for ourselves.

 

[pdudgeon]

There is something about urbanization that makes families smaller, and this began in the nineteenth century, during the industrial revolution, long before the pill was invented.

Having just returned from Asia, where there are pretty much cities and rural areas and not much in between, it seems that the impetus for small families probably comes from the people themselves. They love children and I saw lots of children being carried by their moms in little snuggli's, but it's difficult to have a large family in a large city, using public transportation, living in apartments.

I was told that in Seoul every spring the "yellow dust" rolls in from China (I think it's probably in China year round) and that it permeates the skin. People will wear masks over their faces and long sleeves to avoid it. (Luckily, we only visited Seoul for three days in the summer).

Maybe this break in population increase was necessary (Korea is trying to encourage births, too) so that countries had time to figure out what to do about pollution--for example--before doubling a population that would die young because of constant exposure to it.

Many countries have learned that discouraging families has had a bad effect, but are they going to encourage families of three or more? Uh-uh... Would it be good for the world if every couple had three or more children? Uh-uh.

a couple of things stand out in your post.
1. you forgot that it is highly possible that the children who weren't born might have figured out the answer to the pollution problem sooner. Generally the greater number of folks who suffer from a disease the quicker the medical community is to jump on the bandwagon and find a solution for the problem. If you want an example, just look how short a time and how many corners were cut to find a safe vaccine to stop the Ebola plague.

2. there are plenty of couples who do have three or more children, and not all of those families are Catholic either.

3. with the advent of later marriages, childless by choice, and same sex marriages, there is a real need for some families to have three or more children just to keep the population stable. That means not just having 3 children, but choosing to have 4 or 5 children in a family to secure the future.
Without those 4 or 5 children in the system schools will close down, teachers will be out of work, as will principals, janitors, bus drivers, and mechanics.
Local commerce will suffer also. and I haven't even mentioned that the income going in to the Social Security fund will take a hit as well.

So yes, a whole society will be adversely affected if we can't stop PP in it's tracks.

 

[IHOM]

Planned parenthood should be abolished and its members arrested.

 

[Rhamiel]

Hint: if, instead of talking about defunding PP, the talk had been of beginning funding a range of other agencies to provide the needed services, and a plan to shift all that funding and work across, transitioned over a realistic timeframe, you'd get a lot less negative reaction.

I agree with you 100%

Or "yeah, the Southern States abandoned the Union and attacked the United States, starting a war that led to so much suffering, chiefly out of a desire to maintain the "right" to buy and sell blacks as slaves, but there is so much of their culture that we should celebrate."

you seem obsessed with the Confederate flag
I am not even sure what point you are trying to make

Implanon for every 16 year old girl and ongoing until one opts out would eliminate popular need for abortion over night. Goodluck getting so called "right to lifers" to support that idea, too.

that is so messed up on so many levels

 

[frenchdefense]

Sure thing:

https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

The primary reasons cited for getting abortions are that the child would interfere with the Mother's finances, goals, relationships or that the Mother was in a bad relationship or was single. As my grandfather died when my Mother was very young, leaving nothing behind, I know the sacrifices strong women like my Grandmother and countless other women make to raise children alone. It isn't ideal, but it is very doable and to kill a child because they father is a deadbeat is a greedy thing to do. Financial concerns are a biggie when it comes to influencing women to kill their children. In this country, the poor have it tough - but they do not have it so tough as to warrant abortion, that's greed talking. The typical woman who seeks an abortion, in spite of what they claim, lives above the poverty line. The women who seek abortions generally do so to maintain a certain level of comfort in their lives.

That is not to say that greedy corperations, and greedy Catholics like me aren't also to blame for abortions. We have built a society where it is preferable to obtain or maintain treasure for ourselves than it is to live true lives of service and fight to give every person what we most want for ourselves.

Ok, I'm sorry but I really think that you're making a serious inferential leap when you characterize the answers to those survey questions as "greed". In the first place according to the study about 3/4 of the gave three or more reasons for seeking a abortion which strongly suggests that the decision was complex and based several reason. Secondly, the survey doesn't really suss out or or ask for precise reasons as to what the decision was based upon. The section categories are rather vague. Even Gottmacker Institute who takes the poll every year and actually interviews clients on their motivations can only make broad conclusions. But this is one of them :

Most women in every age, parity, relationship, racial, income and education category cited
concern for or responsibility to other individuals as a factor in their decision to have an abortion. In contrast to the
perception (voiced by politicians and laypeople across the ideological spectrum) that women who choose abortion
for reasons other than rape, incest and life endangerment do so for “convenience,” our data suggest that after care-
fully assessing their individual situations, women base their decisions largely on their ability to maintain economic stability and to care for the children they already have.

That sounds more overloaded and economical distressed then "greedy". But I suppose "greedy" is better if you don't actually, you know, what to DO something about the problem (like strengthen the social safety net) rather then blame Planned Parenthood.

 

[frenchdefense]

Planned parenthood should be abolished and its members arrested.

This is helpful.

Whether you like it or not abortion is a legal, Constitutional protected medical procedure.

That sort of makes it's hard to arrest anyone for having, performing or paying for one.

And people actually are in a quandary why I shake my head in incredulity at the "pro-life" movement.

 

[Fantine]

We are quick to judge, aren't we? And I notice that it isn't women who are judging why other women have abortions.

Are they greedy? Are they selfish? I don't know, and any way, each one is too unique to make generalizations about.

Of course, we do judge in our hearts, but because I know it's wrong I try to suppress it. I know one woman who had an abortion, 30 something years ago, for what I judged was a completely unnecessary reason...when she and her husband had children later, she did a great job raising them and is a wonderful mother and grandmother.

I have a niece who has one child with catastrophic, profound, profound disabilities. Doctors begged her to have an abortion. They begged her parents to convince her to have an abortion. They said her husband would leave (and he did).

But I try not to think, "If she could do it, then anyone could do it." Because maybe they can't. I don't think I could have.

And I wouldn't call women in her million-to-one situation "greedy" or "selfish" if they listened to the doctors.

 

[MikeK]

you seem obsessed with the Confederate flag
I am not even sure what point you are trying to make

What can I say, it's a pretty flag. The point that I am making should be clear, I am agreeing that just because some good came from an group or movement associated with grave evils - like PP or the Nazis or the Confederacy - doesn't mean that we should applaud the movement.

 

[MikeK]

We are quick to judge, aren't we? And I notice that it isn't women who are judging why other women have abortions.

Are they greedy? Are they selfish? I don't know, and any way, each one is too unique to make generalizations about.

Of course, we do judge in our hearts, but because I know it's wrong I try to suppress it. I know one woman who had an abortion, 30 something years ago, for what I judged was a completely unnecessary reason...when she and her husband had children later, she did a great job raising them and is a wonderful mother and grandmother.

I have a niece who has one child with catastrophic, profound, profound disabilities. Doctors begged her to have an abortion. They begged her parents to convince her to have an abortion. They said her husband would leave (and he did).

But I try not to think, "If she could do it, then anyone could do it." Because maybe they can't. I don't think I could have.

And I wouldn't call women in her million-to-one situation "greedy" or "selfish" if they listened to the doctors.

Come on Fantine, I've seen you make generalizations about gun owners and Southern conservatives on several occasions. There is nothing wrong with making accurate generalizations. Of course they aren't true in every case, but if they typically are, good enough.

 

[IHOM]

Any law that allows killing children is evil and should be abolished these people dont care about women just profit. There is another 9 videos in the can ready to be released but the courts are trying to prevent their release... one of which apparently shows a baby being born alive and their organs harvested.... this is evil

Where is our pope... where is the vicar of christ where is the supreme pontiff where is the moral authority of christ on earth.... where is he... we have a chance to strike a killer blow on planned parenthood with these scandles and i hear nothing but silence from the vatican...come on holy father speak out!!!!

 

[MikeK]

Any law that allows killing children is evil and should be abolished these people dont care about women just profit. There is another 9 videos in the can ready to be released but the courts are trying to prevent their release... one of which apparently shows a baby being born alive and their organs harvested.... this is evil

Where is our pope... where is the vicar of christ where is the supreme pontiff where is the moral authority of christ on earth.... where is he... we have a chance to strike a killer blow on planned parenthood with these scandles and i hear nothing but silence from the vatican...come on holy father speak out!!!!

The Church has declared abortion evil in every circumstance, as has this Pope.

 

[IHOM]

Yeah, but where is his words about these videos.

 

[Armoured]

that is so messed up on so many levels

Maybe if you don't want to stop abortion, sure.

 

[MikeK]

Yeah, but where is his words about these videos.

Why would he say anything about his video nonsense? The abortion is the serious moral issue, selling parts from dead bodies hardly warrants comment. This is a manufactured crisis by people who believe other people are emotional rather than rational. The evil is in the abortion, not the aftermath.