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Defining sola scriptura.

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Rick Otto

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The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Humility and Obedience (following the example of Christ) is what is needed.

Tell it to the old men in expensive vestments who haunt priceless rich surroundings of the only congregation that is a nation- state - a "kingdom" in a world whose kingdoms were offered by their rightful master to Jesus in return for His worship.
Sometimes you just have to form a whip and turn over some tables until people understand why the temple veil was torn apart.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
Read post #11.



.


If what you say is true, then we have no dispute. Everything is hunky dory.


I'm glad YOU have no problem with it, but of course, your denomination passionately protests this practice; indeed you cannot be a Catholic and have no dispute with Sola Scriptura. As you read in post #11 and evidently agree with.




Jerome understood this, and obeyed his Church
Then he rejected accoutability, responsibility and norming (thus Sola Scriptura) It sounds like he might have been Catholic, docilicly submitting to the RC Denomination itself as unto God Himself, docilicly embracing whatever the RC Denomination itself individually and currently is saying because it itself individually and currently is and because it itself individually tells him to do that. All in lieu of, in place of, in stead of accountability and thus norming and thus Sola Scriptura.




Martin Luther broke away from it. There's the real difference.
I wish Catholics would study history..... Luther was excommunicated by the individual RC Denomination. He didn't excommunicate himself.

But yes, Luther embraced the concept of truth - and this put him in conflict with the foundation of the singular, individual RC Denomination.

Consider post # 11 that you say you have no problem with, the section "Why the RC Denomination So Passionately Protests this Practice?"




.
 
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Rick Otto

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But yes, Luther embraced the concept of truth - and this put him in conflict with the foundation of the singular, individual RC Denomination.
.

I had the same problem with them, but it surfaced right away... 1st grade catechism class!.
In 4th grade upon hearing about transubstantiation, I decided it was no longer safe to not hide my objections and wait for my 18th birthday.
 
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topcare

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The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Humility and Obedience (following the example of Christ) is what is needed.
I think that obedience is the hardest thing for Americans because show how sub consciously we Americans think of obedience as anti freedom so Sola Scriptura abounds so that one only needs to obey oneself
 
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Metal Minister

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I think that obedience is the hardest thing for Americans because show how sub consciously we Americans think of obedience as anti freedom so Sola Scriptura abounds so that one only needs to obey oneself

Every time you post, you prove your willing ignorance of sola scriptura...how many times can you be corrected before you admit your error? In fact only a few posts ago I responded to tadoflamb informing him, (for not the first time amongst those of us who adhere to SS) that Sola Scriptura is NOT you and your bible under a tree...educate yourself before you post on this subject again please, as correcting you repeatedly is not only tiresome, but getting us no where...
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I think that obedience is the hardest thing for Americans because show how sub consciously we Americans think of obedience as anti freedom so Sola Scriptura abounds so that one only needs to obey oneself


Actually, that's EXACTLY why the RCC so foundationally, so passionately REJECTS this practice. It wants all to lay aside the issue of truth, the issue of accountability (in the sole, unique, exclusive, particular, individual case of it itself alone) and in place of that, in stead of that, in lieu of that, everyone is to obey it itself, submit to it itself, be subject to it itself, docilicly swallow and obey whatever it itself individually and currently says (in formal doctrine, AT LEAST) as it itself tells them to do in the case of it itself.


Why does the RCC so passionately protest and reject this practice?


The RC Denomination rejects the Rule of Scripture in norming not because it rejects Scripture or has an alternative rule that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative, MORE above and beyond and outside all disputing parties. Rather the rejection is because the protestor rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique, individual case of it itself alone, uniquely, individually.

From The Handbook of the Catholic Faith (page 151), "When the Catholic is asked for the substantiation for his belief, the correct answer is: From the teaching authority. This authority consists of the bishops of The Catholic Church in connection with the Pope in Rome. The faithful are thus freed from the typically Protestant question of 'is it true' and instead rests in quiet confidence that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is the teaching of Jesus Himself since Jesus said, 'whoever hears you hears me'." The Catholic Church itself says in the Catechism of itself (#87): Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms."

Since it itself declares that it itself exclusively, individually is unaccountable and that whatever it itself uniquely, individually, currently says is just to be swallowed whole because it itself alone says it and it itself alone tells all to do that in total submission to it itself as unto God Himself, then the entire issue of norming (and the embraced norma normans in such) becomes entirely irrelevant (for itself uniquely). The issue has been changed from truth to the enormous, unmitigated POWER that it itself claims for it itself uniquely that calls on all to just obey, submit, swallow.




.




To the issue of the thread: See post 11







.
 
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barryatlake

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Josiah,the question of where the Bible came from presents the same kind of problem to those who believe in Sola Scriptura, as the question of where matter came from presents to those who believe in evolution, yet do not believe in God.

If you believe in evolution, you have to believe the matter used in evolution came from somewhere. But, if there is no God, then where did matter come from? Big problem. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you have to believe that an authoritative decision was made as to which books did and did not belong in the Bible – as to which books were and were not the inspired, inerrant Word of God. But, if there is no binding authority outside of the Bible, then where did this authoritative decision come from? Big problem.

In other words, if you believe in Sola Scriptura, you believe in something that is logically inconsistent. You believe the Bible is the sole authority in deciding Christian belief and practice; yet, you believe in a binding authority – whether you realize it or not – outside of the Bible which gave us the Bible in the first place. Therefore, the Bible cannot be the sole authority in matters of faith and morals. There is some authority outside of the Bible that we have to have in order to have the Bible in the first place!

I would like to add that as a Catholic I believe – and historical documentation backs up my belief – it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together as we have it today. There are many Protestants who disagree with me on that, but whether you agree that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together or not, you have to agree that someone did. Someone with binding authority on Christians decided the disputes about which books should and should not be in what we now call the Bible. The Bible was not consulted in order to determine the question of which books should and should not be in the Bible.

In other words, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura fails the test of logic.

Using this line of reasoning with Sola Scriptura believers on this forum in the past, I have received several different responses. One response is: “God put the Bible together – He gave it to us.” Yes, He did. Catholics believe that God is the primary Author of Scripture. The question remains, however, as to exactly how God put the Bible together. Did he do it all by Himself and then the Bible just dropped down off of a cloud one day and all the people on the Earth heard a voice that said, “Here it is – read it and interpret it for yourselves," I don't believe that happened, but apparently that must be the way most of you understand it
Instead maybe He first use human beings, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to write the Scriptures, and then He used human beings, guided by the Holy Spirit, to authoritatively decide the disputes as to which books were and were not written by Him? We Christians all agree that He used human beings to write the Scriptures, so it’s logical to assume that He also used human beings to authoritatively decide the disputes regarding Scriptures. The question is, which human beings did He use to decide these disputes? You as Sola Scriptura believers ultimately have no answer for this question.

Another response I've received is something like this: “We rely on the witness of the early Christians for our knowledge of what books should and should not be in the Bible. Do you know what we Catholics call the “witness of the early Christians?” Tradition. That’s a word that most of you Protestants will not use, when discussing your religious beliefs. All of your beliefs, you claim, come straight from the Bible and only from the Bible. Yet, when discussing where your beliefs about the Bible came from, you inevitably have to conclude that they came from tradition – whether you use the actual word, “tradition,” or not.

Also, if you respond that you rely on the witness of the early Christians for your knowledge of what is and is not Scripture, then we need to ask how is it that you non-Catholics know what the witness of the early Christians was. Is the witness of the early Christians on this matter written in the Bible? No. In other words, your knowledge of the witness of the early Christians comes from extra–biblical sources, also known as – tradition. Non-Catholic/Apostolics cannot get away from that word – tradition – no matter how hard you try.
 
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Albion

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Every time you post, you prove your willing ignorance of sola scriptura...how many times can you be corrected before you admit your error?

Admitting to an error isn't the main thing here IMO, but the willful misrepresenting of Sola Scriptura, often with a teasing, "tongue-in-cheek" style, is fatal to any attempt at a serious discussion. Those who do that seem interested only it getting the reader hot under the collar at the injustice or ridiculousness of what's said.
 
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tadoflamb

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Do we really need to continually list what Sola Scriptura is NOT? Sola Scriptura is not you and your bible under a tree. Now, provide the instances CaliforniaJosiah has asked for or stop with misrepresentations.

I remember you. You're the guy who said that the Catholic Church holds "Tradition" higher than the bible, even though no Catholic here has said any such thing nor can it be substantiated by any authentic source. It also has been noted that even though your error has been presented to you, there has been no substantiation and no retraction.

Now, in light of your shoddy understanding of Catholicism and your recent response to me, it's clear that your are suffering another misreading. I'm merely pointing out, as are the rest of you, that the definition of sola scriptura that has been offered us here, makes no provision for the personal reading and rendering private judgments of the bible. "I can read the bible for myself" is not part of the seventeen word definition of sola scriptura (see post #11). Maybe there's another definition that allows it, it's just not here.

According to the definition offered to us here, sola scriptura is the practice of norming dogma using the bible as your only rule. How much norming of dogma do you suppose a 21st century sola scripturist with no attachment to any concrete faith community is doing? I'm going to say zero.

Moreover, how much norming of dogma are you doing using the practice of sola scriptura? I'm going to guess zero again.

Even more curious, within the seventeen words of the official, formal, historic, confessional defintion of sola scriptura which subsists in a document which doesn't say anything about being the official, formal, historic, confessional defintion of sola scriptura, is void of the words sola scriptura and has no scriptural references that has been offered to us as the official, formal, historic, confessional defintion of sola scriptura are two little words, 'among us'. Who do you imagine 'us' is? I think their Lutherans, which would place today's individual sola scripturist on the outside looking in, bible in hand.

So, make no mistake, we agree on this point. The definition of sola scriptura offered us makes no provision for the personal reading and private renderings of judgement of the bible with which sola scripturists are so fondly attached. (see post #11)
 
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Albion

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I remember you. You're the guy who said that the Catholic Church holds "Tradition" higher than the bible, even though no Catholic here has said any such thing....

Excuse me, but the church indeed DOES. And most of the Catholics here HAVE agreed to it--with the notable exception of times when it's been put directly to them ("Do you think the Bible is less authoritative than tradition?" etc.)
 
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tadoflamb

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Assuming you do not intend to discourage reading the bible and personally seeking to understand God given words, I can only assume you mean to implicitly assert that the Holy Spirit keeps a safe distance from me in order that I may not understand them.

There seems to be a tendency among sola scripturists to misinterpret my motives. Why is this so?

At any rate, the official, formal, historic, confessional definition of sola scriptura offered to us here doesn't make any provision for your personal reading of the bible. Furthermore, it was written by Lutherans, and knowing what I do about you, I doubt you'd be very comfortable in the LCMS. They wear vestments too.

Perhaps, there's another, more enlightening definition of sola scriptura which you can share with us. One which makes a provision for the free thinkers of the 21st century. Because, without it, I'm afraid the men who penned the official, formal, historic, confessional definition of sola scriptura offered to us here have left you on the outside looking in.
 
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tadoflamb

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Excuse me, but the church indeed DOES. And most of the Catholics here HAVE agreed to it--with the notable exception of times when it's been put directly to them ("Do you think the Bible is less authoritative than tradition?" etc.)

Nonsense. Please underline, bold or otherwise highlight anywhere a Catholic has said the Church holds 'Tradition' higher than scripture. Then please underline, bold or otherwise highlight anywhere a Catholic document says the same.
 
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Albion

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Nonsense. Please underline, bold or otherwise highlight anywhere a Catholic has said the Church holds 'Tradition' higher than scripture. Then please underline, bold or otherwise highlight anywhere a Catholic document says the same.

For one thing, the Bible is considered only to be part of Tradition along with opinion, custom, legend, magisterium, and more. So if it is only of value as part OF Tradition, it's undeniable that Tradition holds precedence. Tradition says it all and incorporates all that determines doctrine for the RCC.

In addition, we've all read innumerable explanations from members of the church here on CF, saying that their church believes that "anything goes" so long as it is not in open conflict with the Bible. That again means a placing of Scripture into a position of being significant ONLY as it relates to Tradition.
 
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Albion

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There seems to be a tendency among sola scripturists to misinterpret my motives. Why is this so?
Oh. We would not want to do that. But the definition of Sola Scriptura has been given twenty times here and explained in every way possible, so when someone who's been following along and participating in the thread begins posts with a false definition of it or continues to say he doesn't understand it, along with using a mocking term like "Sola Scripturists," and additionally calls himself a believer in Sola Scriptura in the process, there is bound to be some confusion.
 
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tadoflamb

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For one thing, the Bible is considered only to be part of Tradition along with opinion, custom, legend, magisterium, and more. So if it is only of value as part OF Tradition, it's undeniable that Tradition holds precedence. Tradition says it all and incorporates all that determines doctrine for the RCC.

In addition, we've all read innumerable explanations from members of the church here on CF, saying that their church believes that "anything goes" so long as it is not in open conflict with the Bible. That again means a placing of Scripture into a position of being significant ONLY as it relates to Tradition.

Yup, I thought so. Instead of bolding, underlining or otherwise highlighting where a Catholic or the Church has said such a thing, all I get is a personal opinion.

It's your collective credibility which suffers when you do this.
 
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Albion

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Yup, I thought so. Instead of bolding, underlining or otherwise highlighting where a Catholic or the Church has said such a thing, all I get is a personal opinion.

Not a personal opinion.

That was a recap of what's actually been alleged by Catholics here and what their church stands on. If you need additional help, look it up.

And, by the way, I'm conversing with a person who demanded a definition of Sola Scriptura and when he got essentially the same one from several different posters and also from official sources, pretended that none of it meant anything. And you think you can take me down that black hole on this issue, too????? :D
 
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barryatlake

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Albion & Josiah,the question of where the Bible came from presents the same kind of problem to those who believe in Sola Scriptura, as the question of where matter came from presents to those who believe in evolution, yet do not believe in God.

If you believe in evolution, you have to believe the matter used in evolution came from somewhere. But, if there is no God, then where did matter come from? Big problem. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you have to believe that an authoritative decision was made as to which books did and did not belong in the Bible – as to which books were and were not the inspired, inerrant Word of God. But, if there is no binding authority outside of the Bible, then where did this authoritative decision come from? Big problem.

In other words, if you believe in Sola Scriptura, you believe in something that is logically inconsistent. You believe the Bible is the sole authority in deciding Christian belief and practice; yet, you believe in a binding authority – whether you realize it or not – outside of the Bible which gave us the Bible in the first place. Therefore, the Bible cannot be the sole authority in matters of faith and morals. There is some authority outside of the Bible that we have to have in order to have the Bible in the first place!

I would like to add that as a Catholic I believe – and historical documentation backs up my belief – it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together as we have it today. There are many Protestants who disagree with me on that, but whether you agree that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together or not, you have to agree that someone did. Someone with binding authority on Christians decided the disputes about which books should and should not be in what we now call the Bible. The Bible was not consulted in order to determine the question of which books should and should not be in the Bible.

In other words, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura fails the test of logic.

Using this line of reasoning with Sola Scriptura believers on this forum in the past, I have received several different responses. One response is: “God put the Bible together – He gave it to us.” Yes, He did. Catholics believe that God is the primary Author of Scripture. The question remains, however, as to exactly how God put the Bible together. Did he do it all by Himself and then the Bible just dropped down off of a cloud one day and all the people on the Earth heard a voice that said, “Here it is – read it and interpret it for yourselves," I don't believe that happened, but apparently that must be the way most of you understand it
Instead maybe He first use human beings, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to write the Scriptures, and then He used human beings, guided by the Holy Spirit, to authoritatively decide the disputes as to which books were and were not written by Him? We Christians all agree that He used human beings to write the Scriptures, so it’s logical to assume that He also used human beings to authoritatively decide the disputes regarding Scriptures. The question is, which human beings did He use to decide these disputes? You as Sola Scriptura believers ultimately have no answer for this question.

Another response I've received is something like this: “We rely on the witness of the early Christians for our knowledge of what books should and should not be in the Bible. Do you know what we Catholics call the “witness of the early Christians?” Tradition. That’s a word that most of you Protestants will not use, when discussing your religious beliefs. All of your beliefs, you claim, come straight from the Bible and only from the Bible. Yet, when discussing where your beliefs about the Bible came from, you inevitably have to conclude that they came from tradition – whether you use the actual word, “tradition,” or not.

Also, if you respond that you rely on the witness of the early Christians for your knowledge of what is and is not Scripture, then we need to ask how is it that you non-Catholics know what the witness of the early Christians was. Is the witness of the early Christians on this matter written in the Bible? No. In other words, your knowledge of the witness of the early Christians comes from extra–biblical sources, also known as – tradition. Non-Catholic/Apostolics cannot get away from that word – tradition – no matter how hard you try.
__________________
 
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Root of Jesse

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Excuse me, but the church indeed DOES. And most of the Catholics here HAVE agreed to it--with the notable exception of times when it's been put directly to them ("Do you think the Bible is less authoritative than tradition?" etc.)

No, the Church doesn't, excuse me! On the same level, yes. But not above. And I've never seen you put it directly to anyone on here, and I would disagree with them if you did, and they affirmed.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'm glad YOU have no problem with it, but of course, your denomination passionately protests this practice; indeed you cannot be a Catholic and have no dispute with Sola Scriptura. As you read in post #11 and evidently agree with.
Well, not exactly. If what you say is true, and what we do is the same as what you say, then there's no issue, and the Church has no issue with it. But what the Church sees in what you believe is a whole 'nother story.

Then he rejected accoutability, responsibility and norming (thus Sola Scriptura) It sounds like he might have been Catholic, docilicly submitting to the RC Denomination itself as unto God Himself, docilicly embracing whatever the RC Denomination itself individually and currently is saying because it itself individually and currently is and because it itself individually tells him to do that. All in lieu of, in place of, in stead of accountability and thus norming and thus Sola Scriptura.




I wish Catholics would study history..... Luther was excommunicated by the individual RC Denomination. He didn't excommunicate himself.
The Church doesnt excommunicate anyone, just as the Church doesn't send people to hell.
But yes, Luther embraced the concept of truth - and this put him in conflict with the foundation of the singular, individual RC Denomination.
What he didn't embrace was the concept of his vow of obedience.
Consider post # 11 that you say you have no problem with, the section "Why the RC Denomination So Passionately Protests this Practice?"




.

We protest what your doctrine says. But what you describe is what Catholics do. There's a disparity there, and you can't reconcile it. What your documents say and what you do are different. That's true of Catholics and their doctrine, too. But we can only go by what's written down in the Catechism.
 
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