Defining Christianity

[Hammster]

I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

Can you list some of the denominations which state who is and isn't a Christian? I think that would help me to understand where you are coming from.

Thanks.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here is a link showing some versions of essential doctrines claimed by various Christian groups, but it does not explain why each group selected those particular doctrines as essential.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrcarddoc1.htm

 

[Hammster]

Here is a link showing some versions of essential doctrines claimed by various Christian groups, but it does not explain why each group selected those particular doctrines as essential.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrcarddoc1.htm

Perhaps I missed it, but which one was a denomination that stated who is and isn't a Christian?

 

[cloudyday2]

Perhaps I missed it, but which one was a denomination that stated who is and isn't a Christian?

Look up the word "essential" in a dictionary.
I'm through with this thread. If I was the moderator here, I would ban you and some of the others from the apologetics forum, because your dishonest tactics should be an embarrassment to any sincere Christian.

 

[Hammster]

Look up the word "essential" in a dictionary.
I'm through with this thread. If I was the moderator here, I would ban you and some of the others from the apologetics forum, because your dishonest tactics should be an embarrassment to any sincere Christian.

I don't see what is dishonest. The OP made a claim. Before I choose to make an argument, I think it is necessary for the OP to defend the claim. No dishonesty.

 

[Sojourner1]

If you don't mind, why don't we focus on essential doctrines for awhile. Other than the verses in John 3 that you previously posted what else, if anything, is necessary doctrine?

So you are looking for additional doctrines (Scriptures) to what is already in the Nicene Creed?

 

[Sojourner1]

I am following this part:
I connect the name of the thread "DEFINING CHRISTIANITY" with this part of the OP:
While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity.

Don't you see that this is confusing? There is already scriptural support for each aspect of the creed. Every single verse in the Bible can be subject to interpretation. Even if we supply more Scripture for support I'm sure the response will be that it's not clear or specific enough and can be interpreted in different ways (case in point: this post).

 

[Ran77]

To be honest, I thought you were trying to be humorous with your earlier posts, because they were so preposterous. Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems that you are deliberately trying to disrupt the thread. Why? This is an important topic. Maybe the answers aren't easy to find, but that only makes the discussion more interesting.

Thank you.

 

[Ran77]

So you are looking for additional doctrines (Scriptures) to what is already in the Nicene Creed?

That is not what I posted. I asked if there were any essential doctrines of Christianity. I'm not interested in having someone point a finger at the Nicene Creed as their contribution. If you think the Bible indicates that Christians must do something or must believe something then trot out the verses and we can look at them.

 

[Sojourner1]

That is not what I posted. I asked if there were any essential doctrines of Christianity. I'm not interested in having someone point a finger at the Nicene Creed as their contribution. If you think the Bible indicates that Christians must do something or must believe something then trot out the verses and we can look at them.

What don't you agree with in the Nicene Creed? Why don't you think this is a sufficient document for laying out the essential doctrines of Christianity?

 

[Ran77]

Can you list some of the denominations which state who is and isn't a Christian? I think that would help me to understand where you are coming from.

Thanks.

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the Catholics issuing a declaration that the Protestants were not Christians when they broke off. I don't remember the exact wording, but I know it was pretty strong language. This sort of claim is made all the time by one group who has a difference of opinion on doctrine with another group. I don't think it's important to identify these groups. I'm wanting to develop a litmus test for what and who is a Christian as well as which doctrines are essential to Christian beliefs.

Here is a link to a Catholic article on why Protestants don't consider Catholics to be Christians. I think that is sufficient evidence.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...-consider-catholics-to-be-christians-and-how-

 

[Ran77]

I don't see what is dishonest. The OP made a claim. Before I choose to make an argument, I think it is necessary for the OP to defend the claim. No dishonesty.

Defend the claim? It has already happened in this thread. It happens on this website all the time. That stance strikes me as dishonest as well.

 

[Ran77]

What don't you agree with in the Nicene Creed? Why don't you think this is a sufficient document for laying out the essential doctrines of Christianity?

Post it here and I'll let you know.

 

[Sojourner1]

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

 

[Hammster]

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the Catholics issuing a declaration that the Protestants were not Christians when they broke off. I don't remember the exact wording, but I know it was pretty strong language. This sort of claim is made all the time by one group who has a difference of opinion on doctrine with another group. I don't think it's important to identify these groups. I'm wanting to develop a litmus test for what and who is a Christian as well as which doctrines are essential to Christian beliefs.

Here is a link to a Catholic article on why Protestants don't consider Catholics to be Christians. I think that is sufficient evidence.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...-consider-catholics-to-be-christians-and-how-

That doesn't support your claim in the OP. Even the link is just a Catholic answer to a question. It does not provide links to any denomination's statements of faith which identify who is in or out.

So as it stands, your premise is unsubstantiated. You shouldn't expect members to defend a claim that has no support.

 

[Hammster]

Defend the claim? It has already happened in this thread. It happens on this website all the time. That stance strikes me as dishonest as well.

I have not seen even one link or quote where you've provided any evidence about denominations saying who is in and who is out. Even the Nicene Creed doesn't do that.

 

[Alla27]

That is not what I posted. I asked if there were any essential doctrines of Christianity. I'm not interested in having someone point a finger at the Nicene Creed as their contribution. If you think the Bible indicates that Christians must do something or must believe something then trot out the verses and we can look at them.

I think you will wait for a long time for an answer.
As I read the Bible and as I understand it, the Bible doesn't list any "essential doctrines of Christianity". There is no such thing/claim in the Bible. I may be wrong.
I am still learning, I am not all-knowing.

 

[Alla27]

Or, may be the Bible has "essential doctrines of Christianity" but HOW do we know it?

 

[Ran77]

That doesn't support your claim in the OP. Even the link is just a Catholic answer to a question. It does not provide links to any denomination's statements of faith which identify who is in or out.

So as it stands, your premise is unsubstantiated. You shouldn't expect members to defend a claim that has no support.

Feel free to not participate.

 

[Ran77]

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Are all of these considered essential doctrines to Christianity? It looks more like a list of what those who follow the Nicene Creed have chosen to believe. This is still a matter of you pointing to the Nicene Creed and expecting me to interact with it rather than you presenting scripture that supports a definition of what and who is a Christian, or scripture that defines a doctrine that is essential to salvation and the Christian faith.

However, I will take a look at the first verse on the list.

Romans 10: 8-10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


1) There is nothing here that identifies this as a qualifier for being a Christian.

2) Verse nine does indicate that those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised him from the dead will be saved.


This qualifies as an essential doctrine for salvation, but does not identify who is or is not a Christian. I consider that progress.