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Defining Christianity

Ran77

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The portion in red is clearly a qualifier for being a Christian (being saved).

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Are you telling me that "thou shalt be saved" isn't referring to the salvation of believers (Christians)?


I feel that I was pretty clear in my statement. This verse states: those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead will be saved. What it doesn't do is equate those who believe to being a Christian. That was inserted into the verse by you. As for it referring to the salvation of those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead - I already stated that it referred to salvation. Also, your term "Believer" is vague. This verse is specific in stating that it applies to those who A) Confess Jesus and B) believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead.


:)
 
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Hammster

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First you posted:



Which asks for one denomination that stated who is and isn't a Christian. Then you posted:



Which decries not having even one link or quote. Then when one is provided the complaint switches to the number of links or quotes. Taking this further I expect that should I provide even a large number of quotes from a variety of denominations that a new complaint will take its place. This just represent an early example of what I am addressing in this thread. If accusations of how the other denomination is not a Christian denomination were already flying when there were only two major factions in Christianity I find it entirely reasonable to accept that the practice continued on from here with the increasing diversity in beliefs. I don't intend to provide any more examples - this excerpt along with the comments that are routinely made on this website are sufficient enough evidence to justify this thread.

:)
Not really. You made a plural assertion. And as far as I can tell, one pope's comments do not make up the Catholic statement of faith. Neither do various participant's comments on this site. You seem to be upset with me because I'm trying to address the OP. You should be thankful that I'm trying to keep it on topic.
 
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Ran77

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Write down the word Christian. Beneath it, write: 1. Believers. 2. born again. 3. followers. 4. faithists. 5. Graceists. 6. Confessors. 7. Professors. 8. Saved. 9. Secure. 10. Blessed......

There are many more.

Just don't write Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic, etc......

Then drop in at your favorite Pub, ask the bartender the question: "What is a Christian?"

"In the wee small hours of the morning,
while the whole wide world is fast asleep,
you sit alone, thinking about............"

Do you have any scriptural support for this concept?


:)
 
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AV1611VET

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civilwarbuff

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Here is an excerpt from the Exsurge Dominie issued by Pope Leo X.

Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics "whose last defense," as Jerome says, "is to start spewing out a serpent's venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished." For although you have said that there must be heresies to test the faithful, still they must be destroyed at their very birth by your intercession and help, so they do not grow or wax strong like your wolves. Finally, let the whole church of the saints and the rest of the universal church arise. Some, putting aside her true interpretation of Sacred Scripture, are blinded in mind by the father of lies. Wise in their own eyes, according to the ancient practice of heretics, they interpret these same Scriptures otherwise than the Holy Spirit demands, inspired only by their own sense of ambition, and for the sake of popular acclaim, as the Apostle declares. In fact, they twist and adulterate the Scriptures. As a result, according to Jerome, "It is no longer the Gospel of Christ, but a man's, or what is worse, the devil's."


:)
How do you know he is talking about Christians? I don't see the word Christian in there...anyone else?
 
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Sojourner1

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I feel that I was pretty clear in my statement. This verse states: those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead will be saved. What it doesn't do is equate those who believe to being a Christian. That was inserted into the verse by you. As for it referring to the salvation of those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead - I already stated that it referred to salvation. Also, your term "Believer" is vague. This verse is specific in stating that it applies to those who A) Confess Jesus and B) believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead.



:)

You're kidding me, right? You are proposing that we can't equate those who believe with being a Christian? The word Christian was created to describe those who believed in Christ and followed Christ (if I remember right it was actually meant to be an insult to call them Christians). Believers are Christians.
 
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Ran77

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All of the following verses are speaking about believers, those who follow Christ and believe in Him, believe that He is the eternal God, believe that He died on the cross and rose again, and believe that because He is God he can forgive our sins and give us salvation though Him alone. Those who believe in their hearts, and confess with their mouth, in the full gospel of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins are called Christians.

A lot of verses which emphasize that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

No mention that believing in Jesus makes one a Christian. That is man interjecting his doctrine into the discussion.


:)
 
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Ran77

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Not really. You made a plural assertion. And as far as I can tell, one pope's comments do not make up the Catholic statement of faith. Neither do various participant's comments on this site. You seem to be upset with me because I'm trying to address the OP. You should be thankful that I'm trying to keep it on topic.

I'm not the topic of the thread. Your assertions as to whether, or not, I'm upset do not move the discussion of the topic forward in any meaningful way. I happen to be loving your responses. They do a beautiful job of demonstrating the mindset of which I am addressing in the thread. I suspect those who are less biased on the subject will notice that your posts steer away from the actual topic while attempting to focus on peripheral details of the OP. While you are nitpicking single words in my OP the substance of the topic goes unchallenged in any meaningful way. I'm quite content to have the forum members at large notice the direction the discussion has gone.


:)
 
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Sojourner1

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A lot of verses which emphasize that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

No mention that believing in Jesus makes one a Christian. That is man interjecting his doctrine into the discussion.


:)

"Christian" is the name given to those who believe in Christ and are saved. Believer in Christ = Christian.


"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward." Mark 9:41

"and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." Acts 11:26

"Then Agrippa said to Paul, ‘Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?’ Paul replied, ‘Short time or long—I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.’" Acts 26:28-29

"If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." 1 Peter 4:14-161
 
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Ran77

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How do you know he is talking about Christians? I don't see the word Christian in there...anyone else?

The beautiful thing about this comment is that I really don't need to provide a rebuttal to show how flawed it is. The statement screams it on its own.


:)
 
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Ran77

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You're kidding me, right? You are proposing that we can't equate those who believe with being a Christian? The word Christian was created to describe those who believed in Christ and followed Christ (if I remember right it was actually meant to be an insult to call them Christians). Believers are Christians.

Show it. Where in the Bible does it make that comparison?


:)
 
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Hammster

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I'm not the topic of the thread. Your assertions as to whether, or not, I'm upset do not move the discussion of the topic forward in any meaningful way. I happen to be loving your responses. They do a beautiful job of demonstrating the mindset of which I am addressing in the thread. I suspect those who are less biased on the subject will notice that your posts steer away from the actual topic while attempting to focus on peripheral details of the OP. While you are nitpicking single words in my OP the substance of the topic goes unchallenged in any meaningful way. I'm quite content to have the forum members at large notice the direction the discussion has gone.


:)
I'm not steering away from the topic. I'm addressing the first part of the op, which you've pointed to on a number of occasions. My guess is you thought you wouldn't be challenged to defend the statement.

Perhaps you should amend it so we can discuss what you really want to discuss without the ambiguous accusations.
 
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ScottA

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I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

:)
It does not matter what we include or do not include in our walk, what we claim, or what we say we know of Christ...but rather whether Christ has known US. Matthew 7:21
 
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fatboys

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It does not matter what we include or do not include in our walk, what we claim, or what we say we know of Christ...but rather whether Christ has known US. Matthew 7:21
The problem is that there are those who claim to Christlike but point fingers at those who believe in Christ but have differences in doctrines. They are defining who are Christians using something they beleive defines it. What is it
 
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Ran77

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"Christian" is the name given to those who believe in Christ and are saved. Believer in Christ = Christian.

According to Acts 11: 26 Christian is the name given to Christ's disciples. It requires the interpretation of mortal man to change that to Believer in Christ. The Greek word for disciple means both pupil and adherent - not necessarily believer. Although, I think that one of the definitions for Christian in the English language does mention something about believers in Christ.


"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward." Mark 9:41

An unidentified name that marks them as followers of Christ. If I'm not mistaken, this verse takes place before Acts identifies the first use of the term Christian. Once again, this is a mortal attempt to interpret this passage to mean "Christian." Don't get me wrong, I have already stated that I don't feel that follower of Christ or those who believe in Christ is inappropriate for the definition of Christian, but I would like to see specific support for it in the scriptures. What you are providing is your interpretation of the material to arrive at that definition.

But let's go ahead and argue that "believers" and "followers" can be equated to the term "Christian" - how do you then demonstrate what and who is a Christian (follower/believer)? From everything I've seen the groups who have been identified by one denomination or another as not-Christian all believe in Jesus and follow Him.


:)
 
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ScottA

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The problem is that there are those who claim to Christlike but point fingers at those who believe in Christ but have differences in doctrines. They are defining who are Christians using something they beleive defines it. What is it
My point was, that they, nor do we, have a say.
 
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