Defining Christianity

[Winken]

We Christians do not need, nor do we look to, creeds. We have the Savior, Jesus, the Christ. Therefore, we are called Christians. If we look to the translation of "Christ," we obviously know that it is "Messiah." Jesus, the Messiah, pinpoints Him as the Redeemer of those Hebrews who lost their way after being introduced to the Covenant with Abraham. Jesus came as their promised Messiah, their Redeemer. Those among individual Hebrew folk who acknowledged Him as such were first known as members of "The Way." That term gave way to the identifier, Christian, during the ministry of the Apostle Paul.

 

[Sojourner1]

Since I have already responded to a post which listed all three instances of the term Christian in the Bible it seems pretty likely that I do realize the number of times it is used. Which is why I'm amazed that people think they can define what and who is a Christian. The Bible doesn't contain scripture which clearly defines what it means to be a Christian. And I am tired of people offering their interpretation of the Bible as the Word of God.

What I have given everyone is an opportunity to make whatever argument they have for defining what and who is a Christian. I have not limited it to verses which contain the word. It isn't my fault that nothing credible has been presented so far. If I was in your position I feel that I could give a reasonably strong argument on the topic. Anyone who cannot back up their claims about what constitutes a Christian should rethink their position because what they are presenting is obviously just their opinion.

And in case you haven't noticed, I'm not defending Mormon beliefs here. This isn't even the correct forum for debating Mormon beliefs. I'm surprised that a Staff Member continues to try to make this thread about Mormon beliefs even after an official Moderator message has been posted to leave it alone.

There has been credible supporting Scripture presented and you reject it. You said "If "Christian" wasn't even used until the book of Acts, then any scripture appearing before that point are invalid in determining how the Bible defines what and who is a Christian". Until you acknowledge that there are words used throughout the New Testament that refer to Christians ("brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", "saints, and "bondservants"), then we cannot possibly have a discussion about the definition of a Christian.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I think it might help if you read the comment to which I responded.

I did....

These verses talk about believing in Christ. At best, a person can extrapolate that a Christian is a person who believes in Christ. Which follows the primary definition in the dictionary and I think is readily accepted among even those people who are traditionally excluded from the I-am-a-Christian club. Even though the Bible doesn't specifically give this as the definition of a Christian, I am willing to accept that a person who believes in Christ is a Christian as a definition of what it takes to be a Christian. Of course, all that would do is put us right at the point I've made on this forum all along.

Your definitions of Christian:
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ : He died like a true Christian.
No extrapolation necessary.

Your quote from above:
Even though the Bible doesn't specifically give this as the definition of a Christian, I am willing to accept that a person who believes in Christ is a Christian as a definition of what it takes to be a Christian.
Except now you don't:

If "Christian" wasn't even used until the book of Acts, then any scripture appearing before that point are invalid in determining how the Bible defines what and who is a Christian.

A house divided against itself......

The topic is not about how a believer must be born again.

You are right, but you demanded scripture and that is what you got.
Christians are those who believe in Christ& 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity....which you consent to.
Only Christians will see the Kingdom of God: Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So in order to see the Kingdom of God you must be a Christian and be born again:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


Thank you Sojourner1 for bringing this out.....

 

[Alla27]

So, what is clear definition of word "Christian" in the Bible?
So far, none of us could produce the quote from the Bible.
Interesting.

 

[Alla27]

Until you acknowledge that there are words used throughout the New Testament that refer to Christians ("brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", "saints, and "bondservants"), then we cannot possibly have a discussion about the definition of a Christian.

Then who on planet earth decides who can be called "Christian" and who can't?
Who has the right to tell me that I am not Christian?

 

[civilwarbuff]

So, what is clear definition of word "Christian" in the Bible?
So far, none of us could produce the quote from the Bible.
Interesting.

And this is what I have been working on all this time....silly me.

I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

Then who on planet earth decides who can be called "Christian" and who can't?
Who has the right to tell me that I am not Christian?

Uh....see above.....

 

[Ran77]

Asking for scripture to support your view is playing by arbitrary rules? How amusing.

Alright. What arbitrary rule have I asked?

 

[Winken]

The Bible speaks for itself through the Holy Spirit present in each authentic Believer in Jesus as Savior. He is our only authority. He does not promote rules and regulations. There are no private interpretations. Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone plus nothing, eternally sustained as such. Each Believer has an assignment which is to witness to the Truth of God's Word while revealing the plan of salvation as contained in the Pauline Epistles. Together, witnesses constitute and advance the Body of Christ. The visible church is US, the Body of Christ, not an organization, not endorsing rules, regulations, religious structure and rituals. 'Christian' is our identifier. We cannot be compartmentalized into doctrines, creeds, or hierarchy. No "he said, she said" stuff, thanks very much.

Romans, chapters 9 through 11, are the "Jewish Interlude," the pause of the Apostle Paul to cry out about the failure of the Hebrew folk to identify Jesus as Messiah in the first place, and then to identify Him as Savior after the Cross. One can stop reading at Romans 8:31, then go directly to Romans 12:1, without missing a beat. Paul's heart's cry for the Hebrews is exactly that, while containing particular insights into how they, the Hebrew folk, and how we, the non-Jews, were to accept Jesus as Savior, without regard to anything else. Underline anything else twice. Obviously, Paul took his ministry to the Jews but to we Gentiles, as well, including the whole of humanity in his God-ordained path to eternal security in Romans 10:8-13.

We are Christians because we have surrendered to Jesus confessing Him as Savior, in response to the biblical injunction to do so. The Hebrew folk, during the 3-year ministry of Jesus on earth, prior to the Crucifixion, acknowledged Jesus as Messiah / Redeemer, as individuals. They were known as "The Way."

Those Hebrew folk who rejected Jesus as Messiah / Redeemer, and further as Savior after the Cross, are eternally condemned. Those who today, regardless of race, creed, color or national origin reject Jesus as Savior are, tragically, eternally condemned.

It isn't complicated, folks, until we start firing salvos from secular humanistic stockpiles of half-baked ammunition.

 

[Alla27]

And this is what I have been working on all this time....silly me.

You produced wrong quotes. Good quotes but they don't answer the question: who is Christian?

 

[civilwarbuff]

You produced wrong quotes. Good quotes but they don't answer the question: who is Christian?

That is not the thread...here is the thread.

Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

So please stay on topic...

 

[Ran77]

There has been credible supporting Scripture presented and you reject it. You said "If "Christian" wasn't even used until the book of Acts, then any scripture appearing before that point are invalid in determining how the Bible defines what and who is a Christian". Until you acknowledge that there are words used throughout the New Testament that refer to Christians ("brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", "saints, and "bondservants"), then we cannot possibly have a discussion about the definition of a Christian.

Feel free to read through the thread again. I have already accepted that "Christians" was equated with "disciples." Do you have evidence that any of these other terms was accepted in the Bible as having the same meaning? In addition, I don't recall you using any supporting scripture that attempted to compare "Christians" to "brethren" or any of the other terms you posted above. Which makes it ludicrous to throw that out as a reason for not being able to have a discussion about the definition of a Christian. No one is being stopped from posting such evidence other than a lack of effort on their part. Trot it on out and we'll see how it holds up. As it stands right now, you have not presented any scripture which supports a definition for what or who is a Christian.

 

[Ran77]

Your definitions of Christian:
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ : He died like a true Christian.
No extrapolation necessary.

Your quote from above:
Even though the Bible doesn't specifically give this as the definition of a Christian, I am willing to accept that a person who believes in Christ is a Christian as a definition of what it takes to be a Christian.
Except now you don't:

CFR (Call For Reference)

Provide the quote where I have not accepted either of those as the meaning of a Christian.


However, I feel it necessary to point out the flaws in your argument.

A) These are not my definitions. I posted the definitions of Christian as provided by dictionary.com as a starting point, a common reference if you will.

B) I have not specified which of the definitions provided from dictionary.com reflect a supportable view in the Bible. They are provided for their English language understanding.

You are right, but you demanded scripture and that is what you got.

To be more specific, I asked for scripture that defines what or who is a Christian. For the most part hat has not been provided.

Christians are those who believe in Christ& 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity....which you consent to.

I'm willing to go with this definition for the purpose of exploring the point you are making.

Only Christians will see the Kingdom of God: Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So in order to see the Kingdom of God you must be a Christian and be born again:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Verse 3 - A) one, B) must be born again, C) to see the kingdom of God. I already covered this. It doesn't define what or who is a Christian. It states what is necessary to see the kingdom of God. Which is a future event.

Verse 4 - Nicodemus asks how a man can be born again.

Verse 5 - Jesus answers A) one, B) must be born of water and spirit, C) to enter the kingdom of God.

Verse 6 - A) what is born of flesh is flesh, B) what is born of spirit is spirit.

Verse 7 - A) do not marvel, B) that you must be born again.

No definition of what or who is a Christian. Plenty of good stuff on a requirement to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Ran77]

So, what is clear definition of word "Christian" in the Bible?
So far, none of us could produce the quote from the Bible.
Interesting.

Except that I think you pointed out that disciples were first called Christians. We can from that verse expand our understanding of Christian to include at least some forms of the word "disciples." According to Strongs the word Acts 11: 26 uses the words Christianos and the Mathentes in this verse. The meanings of these words in Greek are:

Christianos = a Christian, i.e. follower of Christ

Mathentes = a learner, pupil, disciple


I don't feel that the definitions alone provide us with parameters of what and who is a Christian, but they should certainly give us a starting point. In the broad sense of the word a Christian is a person who follows Christ in the sense that they are a pupil (learner) or an adherent (doer) of His teachings.


Does anyone disagree with this parameter?

 

[Ran77]

We are Christians because we have surrendered to Jesus confessing Him as Savior, in response to the biblical injunction to do so. The Hebrew folk, during the 3-year ministry of Jesus on earth, prior to the Crucifixion, acknowledged Jesus as Messiah / Redeemer, as individuals. They were known as "The Way."

Can you provide scripture to support this view?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Provide the quote where I have not accepted either of those as the meaning of a Christian.

OK

If "Christian" wasn't even used until the book of Acts, then any scripture appearing before that point are invalid in determining how the Bible defines what and who is a Christian.

You are stating that statements before Acts describing followers of Christ cannot be used because the word Christian did not exist, are you not?
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ : He died like a true Christian.
No extrapolation necessary.
I don't see any historical limitations here, do you?

A) These are not my definitions. I posted the definitions of Christian as provided by dictionary.com as a starting point, a common reference if you will.

Did not mean to imply that you made them only that you provided and posted them and therefore have ownership.

B) I have not specified which of the definitions provided from dictionary.com reflect a supportable view in the Bible. They are provided for their English language understanding.

Only these 2 are used as nouns, the others are all adjectives.

To be more specific, I asked for scripture that defines what or who is a Christian. For the most part hat has not been provided.

You are right, but you demanded scripture and that is what you got.
Christians are those who believe in Christ: 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity....which you consent to.
Only Christians will see the Kingdom of God: Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So in order to see the Kingdom of God you must be a Christian and be born again:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Is there any part of the bolded just above that you do not accept and why?

No definition of what or who is a Christian. Plenty of good stuff on a requirement to enter the kingdom of God.

You just agreed with what a Christian is....see above. Changing you mind yet again?

 

[civilwarbuff]

If "Christian" wasn't even used until the book of Acts, then any scripture appearing before that point are invalid in determining how the Bible defines what and who is a Christian.

Definitely trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. Nothing about this in the OP.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Does anyone disagree with this parameter?

I do, the initial definitions are just hunky-dory......

 

[Ran77]

You are stating that statements before Acts describing followers of Christ cannot be used because the word Christian did not exist, are you not?

They cannot be directly used. I used this primarily to point out the flaw in Sojourner1's argument. She presented this initially and if she believes it has any merit then it defeats the argument she the subsequently presented.

What I have presented is the fact that any verses prior to Acts cannot be directly used to define what or who is a Christian. They would have to be compared to something else that has properly set a parameter on the term.

7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ : He died like a true Christian.

No extrapolation necessary.
I don't see any historical limitations here, do you?

I don't see any Bible verses either, do you?

Feel free to follow the discussion. I have already explained, twice I believe, that these have been provided for the common English understanding of the term in order to give us a starting point for the discussion. I have then asked for scripture for anything from the Bible that clearly identifies what or who is a Christian. If you cannot provide Biblical support for your beliefs on this topic I am willing to accept a statement that the dictionary terms for Christian are sufficient to decide what or who is a Christian. Is that what you are offering here?

Did not mean to imply that you made them only that you provided and posted them and therefore have ownership.

Then you should be more specific. However, ownership still implies that I accept the cited verses as represented of my beliefs on the matter. There is no ownership - just information which I have provided to facilitate discussion.

Only these 2 are used as nouns, the others are all adjectives.

And still valid whether they are nouns or adjectives.

You are right, but you demanded scripture and that is what you got.
Christians are those who believe in Christ: 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity....which you consent to.
Only Christians will see the Kingdom of God: Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So in order to see the Kingdom of God you must be a Christian and be born again:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Is there any part of the bolded just above that you do not accept and why?

Where does it state that only Christians will see the Kingdom of God? I don't see that anywhere in the above verses. That's just something you have arbitrarily inserted.

You just agreed with what a Christian is....see above. Changing you mind yet again?

I haven't changed my mind the first time.

 

[Ran77]

Definitely trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. Nothing about this in the OP.

This is known as a discussion. People will present opinions and then I will respond to those opinions. In this case, what you quoted is part of my response to someone else's opinion. There is no need for it to have been a part of my original statement. I'd like to see what rule I've changed. Please, point it out.

 

[Ran77]

I do, the initial definitions are just hunky-dory......

So, Christians are not people who follow Christ as pupils and adherents? Interesting.