Defining Christianity

[Alla27]

Since you have posted something of substance on the topic allow me to start with you. Can you point out where in these verses it specifically indicates that a person who confesses Jesus is a Christian? As far as I can tell it only discusses the matter of salvation. It does not define who is and who is not a Christian.

Jane_Doe probably will give her answer.
But I don't see where in these verses it says that those who confess Jesus are Christians. It doesn't define who Christian is in this particular text.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not seeing any connection to the OP and your response.



Same for this comment.

Here is what you wrote:

While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity.

This seemed to be asking for specific Scriptural support for aspects of the Nicene Creed that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity.

I.e. proof texts

My response was that most Christians aren't Bible-onlyist or biblicist in their thinking. That is to say, having specific proof texts isn't how we do Christianity. There is instead an understanding that our received Christian faith, as expressed in the Creed, is sufficient on its own merits.

How is this not a response to your post?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I think it's interesting that people are asking for justification of Nicene faith from the Scripture of Nicene religion...

 

[cloudyday2]

Another thing I forgot to mention. Apophatic theology ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology ) claims that you can only say what is NOT true about God - you can't say what is true. In the same way, creeds such as the Nicene Creed are a response to the appearance of heresies. The creeds are mostly a definition of what is wrong to believe instead of what is necessary to believe.

It might be possible to argue that we cannot define what is necessary to believe just as we cannot define what is true about God (according to apophatic theology).

 

[ChetSinger]

...Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

Your question isn't specific enough for me to reply with anything useful. Are you looking for scriptural support for the Nicene creed, for example? If so, there's a page somewhere on this site that does that.

 

[Alla27]

Hmm, why is it so hard to give an answer to this great question?
How does the Bible(writers of the books of the Bible) define word "Christian"? Who is Christian according to the Bible(writers of the books of the Bible)?
There is an answer in the Bible. Not in some links, not in some creeds. But in the Bible. Very simple, very beautiful answer.

 

[Alla27]

Another thing I forgot to mention. Apophatic theology ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology ) claims that you can only say what is NOT true about God - you can't say what is true. In the same way, creeds such as the Nicene Creed are a response to the appearance of heresies. The creeds are mostly a definition of what is wrong to believe instead of what is necessary to believe.

It might be possible to argue that we cannot define what is necessary to believe just as we cannot define what is true about God (according to apophatic theology).

It is very interesting observation and thoughts. I never saw it this way. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Alla27]

I suppose you could argue in John 14:6 Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life".
The "truth" is not a creed - it is a person? The "way" is not a route - it is to follow that person? The "life" is to open your eyes and awaken to see that person?

This is how I understand:
1. "the truth" - is the word of God, Jesus teaches word of God - the truth.
2. "the way" - Jesus is an example. He shows what has to be done to have eternal life or how to get to God Heavenly Father. So, yes we follow Jesus's example.
3." the life "- when we hear His word(the truth) and when we believe it we will follow His example(the way). If we do this we will have eternal life, we will live with God Heavenly Father.(the life)

In Acts 10:34-43, Peter explains the gospel to Cornelius and his family as follows. I wonder if Mormons would agree with this version?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10:34-43&version=RSV

I agree with this.

 

[Wgw]

Here is what you wrote:



This seemed to be asking for specific Scriptural support for aspects of the Nicene Creed that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity.

I.e. proof texts

My response was that most Christians aren't Bible-onlyist or biblicist in their thinking. That is to say, having specific proof texts isn't how we do Christianity. There is instead an understanding that our received Christian faith, as expressed in the Creed, is sufficient on its own merits.

How is this not a response to your post?

-CryptoLutheran

That said, the cf.com Statement of Faith provides the Nicene Creed with handy scriptural references:

Statement of Faith CF supports the following as a statement of faith:


The Nicene Creed(with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

 

[Ran77]

Jane_Doe probably will give her answer.
But I don't see where in these verses it says that those who confess Jesus are Christians. It doesn't define who Christian is in this particular text.

I agree. And I argue that the same holds true for all of the claims that have been presented to me so far.

 

[Ran77]

Here is what you wrote:

This seemed to be asking for specific Scriptural support for aspects of the Nicene Creed that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity.

I.e. proof texts

My response was that most Christians aren't Bible-onlyist or biblicist in their thinking. That is to say, having specific proof texts isn't how we do Christianity. There is instead an understanding that our received Christian faith, as expressed in the Creed, is sufficient on its own merits.

How is this not a response to your post?

As always, context is important. The opening statement of the actual OP identifies the topic. Or in other words determines the context of the discussion. To remind everyone what that is I will repost it here.

"Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian."

What you have presented only supports the notion that many of the so-called "Christian" beliefs, or creeds, are not supported by the Bible but are instead manmade structures.

 

[Sojourner1]

The significant differences between Christianity and Mormonism is highlighted in bold:

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)

Here is a table that compares what Mormons believe about Jesus Christ and what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus (Please look at the following link if you really want to know what the differences are). There are numerous Scriptures that are included in a much more detailed explanation for each point, just click on the blue numbers at the end of each sentence in the table.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/jesus-table.html

 

[Ran77]

Your question isn't specific enough for me to reply with anything useful. Are you looking for scriptural support for the Nicene creed, for example? If so, there's a page somewhere on this site that does that.

I acknowledge that you believe my question is not specific enough for you to reply with anything useful. As such, I won't expect you to participate.

 

[Ran77]

Hmm, why is it so hard to give an answer to this great question?
How does the Bible(writers of the books of the Bible) define word "Christian"? Who is Christian according to the Bible(writers of the books of the Bible)?
There is an answer in the Bible. Not in some links, not in some creeds. But in the Bible. Very simple, very beautiful answer.

Thank you.

 

[Sojourner1]

As always, context is important. The opening statement of the actual OP identifies the topic. Or in other words determines the context of the discussion. To remind everyone what that is I will repost it here.

"Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian."

What you have presented only supports the notion that many of the so-called "Christian" beliefs, or creeds, are not supported by the Bible but are instead manmade structures.

So what is the point of your OP? What specific so-called Christian beliefs do you think are not supported by the Bible?

 

[Sojourner1]

I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

The bold red portion contradicts the bold black portion. You say that while each aspect of the creed is drawn from a section of scripture, you then say that it is missing specific scriptural support. The sections of Scripture that are referenced are the support. What more Scriptural support are you looking for? It seems to me that you just don't agree with the Scriptures that are used to support each aspect of the creed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What you have presented only supports the notion that many of the so-called "Christian" beliefs, or creeds, are not supported by the Bible but are instead manmade structures.

No. That may be how you choose to interpret what I said, but that isn't what I said.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jane_Doe]

Since you have posted something of substance on the topic allow me to start with you. Can you point out where in these verses it specifically indicates that a person who confesses Jesus is a Christian? As far as I can tell it only discusses the matter of salvation. It does not define who is and who is not a Christian.

My referencing Romans was in response to Winken, whom first brought up the verse.

Ron77, if you want to reference specifically where "Christian" is used in the Bible, best I can find 3 places:

Acts 11:26 " And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
Acts 26:28 "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
1 Peter 4:15 "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

So that best definition of "Christian" in the Bible would simply be "a dimple of Christ" (Acts 11:26)

 

[Ran77]

The bold red portion contradicts the bold black portion. You say that while each aspect of the creed is drawn from a section of scripture, you then say that it is missing specific scriptural support. The sections of Scripture that are referenced are the support. What more Scriptural support are you looking for? It seems to me that you just don't agree with the Scriptures that are used to support each aspect of the creed.

"While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity."

An interpretation of a section of scripture is a man-made structure. Specific scriptural support makes a clear statement about a belief without the need of interpretation. What I don't agree with is the bias of mortal men that is injected into the interpretation of the Bible. The purpose of this thread is to show that a person cannot be defined as a Christian or not a Christian based on scripture. That determination is entirely man made.

The thread is also for the purposes of determining which, if any, doctrines are essential to Christian belief.

 

[Ran77]

My referencing Romans was in response to Winken, whom first brought up the verse.

Ron77, if you want to reference specifically where "Christian" is used in the Bible, best I can find 3 places:

Acts 11:26 " And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
Acts 26:28 "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
1 Peter 4:15 "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

So that best definition of "Christian" in the Bible would simply be "a dimple of Christ" (Acts 11:26)

I agree that Acts 11:26 gets us the closest to defining what and who is a Christian. The next step would be to define what constitutes a disciple.