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Defining Christianity

Ran77

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No. That may be how you choose to interpret what I said, but that isn't what I said.

You: "That is to say, having specific proof texts isn't how we do Christianity. There is instead an understanding that our received Christian faith, as expressed in the Creed, is sufficient on its own merits."

Me: "What you have presented only supports the notion that many of the so-called "Christian" beliefs, or creeds, are not supported by the Bible but are instead manmade structures."

Either the Bible specifically states a doctrine or it doesn't. If it doesn't specifically state a doctrine that belief is man made. Can you show me where the Bible specifically defines those beliefs? I rather suspect that you cannot.


:)
 
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Sojourner1

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"While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity."

An interpretation of a section of scripture is a man-made structure. Specific scriptural support makes a clear statement about a belief without the need of interpretation. What I don't agree with is the bias of mortal men that is injected into the interpretation of the Bible. The purpose of this thread is to show that a person cannot be defined as a Christian or not a Christian based on scripture. That determination is entirely man made.

The thread is also for the purposes of determining which, if any, doctrines are essential to Christian belief.


:)

It all comes down to what a person believes about Jesus Christ. Christianity is defined throughout the New Testament, you can't say that the Bible does not explain what it means to be a Christian. There are essential doctrines regarding Christian beliefs and even Jesus asked his disciples who they thought He was.
 
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Jane_Doe

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The significant differences between Christianity and Mormonism is highlighted in bold:

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)

Here is a table that compares what Mormons believe about Jesus Christ and what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus (Please look at the following link if you really want to know what the differences are). There are numerous Scriptures that are included in a much more detailed explanation for each point, just click on the blue numbers at the end of each sentence in the table.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/jesus-table.html

Sojourner1, throughout our interactions online, you seem like a very fair and honest person. You have my admiration.

In this spirit of truth, I'm going to let you know that your link giving you false information. Of the 10 points the author claims about Mormon beliefs, 7 of them are downright false and the remaining 3 are purposely distorted to convey the wrong information (i.e. to lie).

Your list actually quite mirrors my beliefs (12 of the 13). The 13th differing one is a different interpretation of John 10:30.

Thank you for all the good work you do on this forum.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Either the Bible specifically states a doctrine or it doesn't. If it doesn't specifically state a doctrine that belief is man made. Can you show me where the Bible specifically defines those beliefs? I rather suspect that you cannot.

And let me repeat myself, most Christians are neither biblicists nor Bible-onlyists. Your statement above assumes a biblicist position, which I sought to address right off the bat.

What you apparently want is for people to work with a particular assumption, when I'm saying that assumption doesn't work.

Why must any given theological point be specifically stated as a doctrine in the Bible? On what basis do you make this claim? If you are not willing to understand where possible debate opponents might be coming from then no possible discussion can be made. And pretending that someone is going off topic because they are challenging your premise is a truly terrible way of engaging in any sort of discussion or debate.

If I start a thread asking why you always beat your child, and you tell me that you don't beat your child, it'd be rather stupid of me to tell you that you're going off topic.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ran77

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Sojourner1, throughout our interactions online, you seem like a very fair and honest person. You have my admiration.

In this spirit of truth, I'm going to let you know that your link giving you false information. Of the 10 points the author claims about Mormon beliefs, 7 of them are downright false and the remaining 3 are purposely distorted to convey the wrong information (i.e. to lie).

Your list actually quite mirrors my beliefs (12 of the 13). The 13th differing one is a different interpretation of John 10:30.

Thank you for all the good work you do on this forum.


This thread and even this forum is not about debating Mormon beliefs. Please, if you want to discuss this create your own thread in the proper forum.


:(
 
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Sojourner1

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Sojourner1, throughout our interactions online, you seem like a very fair and honest person. You have my admiration.

In this spirit of truth, I'm going to let you know that your link giving you false information. Of the 10 points the author claims about Mormon beliefs, 7 of them are downright false and the remaining 3 are purposely distorted to convey the wrong information (i.e. to lie).

Your list actually quite mirrors my beliefs (12 of the 13). The 13th differing one is a different interpretation of John 10:30.

Thank you for all the good work you do on this forum.

Thanks, and you're welcome :)

Regarding the false information in the list that I linked, all of the points are backed by quite a bit of supporting documentation. Are you saying that the documentation is incorrect and those quotes from specific Mormon authorities as well as Mormon documents is not true? That the supporting evidence was fabricated by the author?
 
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Alla27

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Ran77 said:
agree that Acts 11:26 gets us the closest to defining what and who is a Christian. The next step would be to define what constitutes a disciple.

WOW. This is the direction I wanted to go. I love oneness in faith and doctrine. We THINK in the same direction.
First, the Bible defines that Christian is disciple of Christ.
Then the Bible defines who disciple of Christ is.
Disciple of Christ according to the Bible is the one who keeps this commandment of Christ: love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
So, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love my family, friends, neighbors. I love people as Christ loves me. Sometimes I fail but I repent.


Conclusion: according to the Bible I who is LDS(Mormon) keep this commandment of Christ which makes me disciple of Christ. Which makes me Christian.
Thank you, Bible, for letting me know that I am Christian. It is very important to me that according to the Bible(Word of God) I am Christian. Opinions of men are not that important to me IF they CONTRADICT the Word of God.
 
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Sojourner1

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WOW. This is the direction I wanted to go. I love oneness in faith and doctrine. We THINK in the same direction.
First, the Bible defines that Christian is disciple of Christ.
Then the Bible defines who disciple of Christ is.
Disciple of Christ according to the Bible is the one who keeps this commandment of Christ: love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
So, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love my family, friends, neighbors. I love people as Christ loves me. Sometimes I fail but I repent.

Conclusion: according to the Bible I who is LDS(Mormon) keep this commandment of Christ which makes me disciple of Christ. Which makes me Christian.
Thank you, Bible, for letting me know that I am Christian. It is very important to me that according to the Bible(Word of God) I am Christian. Opinions of men is not that important to me IF it CONTRADICTS the Word of God.

What do you believe about Jesus Christ? Who is He? Who is His Father and his mother? Is He God? Or was He created? Do you worship Christ?
 
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Ran77

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And let me repeat myself, most Christians are neither biblicists nor Bible-onlyists. Your statement above assumes a biblicist position, which I sought to address right off the bat.

What you apparently want is for people to work with a particular assumption, when I'm saying that assumption doesn't work.

Why must any given theological point be specifically stated as a doctrine in the Bible? On what basis do you make this claim? If you are not willing to understand where possible debate opponents might be coming from then no possible discussion can be made. And pretending that someone is going off topic because they are challenging your premise is a truly terrible way of engaging in any sort of discussion or debate.

If I start a thread asking why you always beat your child, and you tell me that you don't beat your child, it'd be rather stupid of me to tell you that you're going off topic.

I guess it's best that I repeat myself as well. Any belief that is not clearly defined in the Bible is the interpretation of mortal man. I do not place my trust and faith in man, but only the Lord. The actual words of the prophets are as close to the spoken word of God that we can achieve. That is what I am interested in dealing with in this thread.

If you do not have scriptures that define what it takes to be a Christian and which doctrines are essential to Christianity it doesn't appear we have anything to discuss.


:)
 
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Ran77

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WOW. This is the direction I wanted to go. I love oneness in faith and doctrine. We THINK in the same direction.
First, the Bible defines that Christian is disciple of Christ.
Then the Bible defines who disciple of Christ is.
Disciple of Christ according to the Bible is the one who keeps this commandment of Christ: love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
So, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love my family, friends, neighbors. I love people as Christ loves me. Sometimes I fail but I repent.

Actually, that verse states that "all men know that you are my disciples." An outward demonstration of love allows others to observe that a person is a disciple. It doesn't define a person as a disciple, at least according to this verse. Also, what you posted does not address keeping the commandments of Christ. I'm glad that you at least are working from a good starting point - verses which specifically speak about disciples of Christ.


:)
 
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Alla27

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What do you believe about Jesus Christ? Who is He? Who is His Father and his mother? Is He God? Or was He created? Do you worship Christ?
It is another topic. This OP is about how the Bible defines word "Christian". According to the biblical definition I am Christian.
Those who disagree with my proclamation that I am Christian disagree with biblical definition of word "Christian".
 
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Alla27

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Actually, that verse states that "all men know that you are my disciples." An outward demonstration of love allows others to observe that a person is a disciple. It doesn't define a person as a disciple, at least according to this verse. Also, what you posted does not address keeping the commandments of Christ. I'm glad that you at least are working from a good starting point - verses which specifically speak about disciples of Christ.


:)
I agree with you, thanks for showing it to me. I love to learn new things. Let me ponder more.
 
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Sojourner1

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It is another topic. This OP is about how the Bible defines word "Christian". According to the biblical definition I am Christian.
Those who disagree with my proclamation that I am Christian disagree with biblical definition of word "Christian".

One verse does not give the full definition (revelation) of who is or is not a Christian.
 
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civilwarbuff

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An interpretation of a section of scripture is a man-made structure. Specific scriptural support makes a clear statement about a belief without the need of interpretation. What I don't agree with is the bias of mortal men that is injected into the interpretation of the Bible. The purpose of this thread is to show that a person cannot be defined as a Christian or not a Christian based on scripture. That determination is entirely man made.

The thread is also for the purposes of determining which, if any, doctrines are essential to Christian belief.

Latter-day Saints believe that God is the father of all spirits (Hebrews 12:9). These spirits include all humans, as well as angels, demons (including Satan), and Jesus Christ. In this sense, we are all brothers and sisters to each other. We are all brothers and sisters to Christ, as well as to Satan. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers in the exact same sense that all men and women are siblings to Satan. But critics of Mormonism usually do not provide this context, and therefore leave audiences with the false impression that Mormons are not Christians. Saying Jesus is the brother of Satan thus serves as a short-hand code for communicating “Mormons aren’t Christian.”
http://mormonvoices.org/1/jesus-brother-of-satan
Messiah is not created, He IS and always has been. He is God.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Messiah), and the Word(Messiah) was with God, and the Word(Messiah) was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
We do not worship a created god. Mormons do not believe in Messiah as existing forever as God, Christians do. As for salvation....that's a separate issue.
(red words are mine).
 
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Sojourner1

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WOW. This is the direction I wanted to go. I love oneness in faith and doctrine. We THINK in the same direction.
First, the Bible defines that Christian is disciple of Christ.
Then the Bible defines who disciple of Christ is.
Disciple of Christ according to the Bible is the one who keeps this commandment of Christ: love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
So, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love my family, friends, neighbors. I love people as Christ loves me. Sometimes I fail but I repent.


Conclusion: according to the Bible I who is LDS(Mormon) keep this commandment of Christ which makes me disciple of Christ. Which makes me Christian.
Thank you, Bible, for letting me know that I am Christian. It is very important to me that according to the Bible(Word of God) I am Christian. Opinions of men are not that important to me IF they CONTRADICT the Word of God.

This is a relevant passage to the discussion of being a disciple of Jesus:

John 6:41-70
The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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A dictionary definition of a Christian would be something similar to “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.” While this is a good starting point, like many dictionary definitions, it falls somewhat short of really communicating the biblical truth of what it means to be a Christian. The word “Christian” is used three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. The word “Christian” literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or a “follower of Christ.”

Unfortunately over time, the word “Christian” has lost a great deal of its significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values but who may or may not be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who do not believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a “Christian” nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile. Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church does not make you a Christian.

The Bible teaches that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 says, “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born again by God (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “…by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

A true Christian is a person who has put faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ, including His death on the cross as payment for sins and His resurrection on the third day. John 1:12 tells us, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4, 10). A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Jesus Christ.
 
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Ran77

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A dictionary definition of a Christian would be something similar to “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.” While this is a good starting point, like many dictionary definitions, it falls somewhat short of really communicating the biblical truth of what it means to be a Christian. The word “Christian” is used three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. The word “Christian” literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or a “follower of Christ.”

Unfortunately over time, the word “Christian” has lost a great deal of its significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values but who may or may not be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who do not believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a “Christian” nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile. Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church does not make you a Christian.

I think the dictionary definitions of Christian are helpful in this discussion, although I agree with you that they perhaps fall short.

Here is a list of definitions taken from dictionary.com which I feel pertain to this discussion:

adjective

1. of, relating to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ : Spain is a Christian country.

3. of or relating to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.

4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.

5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.

6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.

noun

7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ : He died like a true Christian.

9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.


I notice that many of these (4, 5, 6, 8) indicate a sort of behavior which identifies the person as a Christian rather than a specific set of beliefs.



The Bible teaches that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 says, “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born again by God (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “…by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

Where does it state that a Christian is someone who has been born again by God? Can you point out the specific line that means what you have just indicated?


A true Christian is a person who has put faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ, including His death on the cross as payment for sins and His resurrection on the third day. John 1:12 tells us, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4, 10). A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Jesus Christ.

Same as above. While not wanting to quarrel with you, this represents what the thread is all about. There is a distinct difference between you interpreting a passage as a definition of a Christian and it actually stating such. What you have quoted indicates that those who receive Him have the right to become the children of God. Even if the Bible went on to make the specific connection between being a child of God and being a Christian, this only covers the possibility of that happening.


:)
 
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BigDaddy4

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My referencing Romans was in response to Winken, whom first brought up the verse.

Ron77, if you want to reference specifically where "Christian" is used in the Bible, best I can find 3 places:

Acts 11:26 " And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
Acts 26:28 "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
1 Peter 4:15 "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

So that best definition of "Christian" in the Bible would simply be "a dimple of Christ" (Acts 11:26)

Christ had dimples??? ;)
 
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