Define "marriage"

[blackribbon]

I had what I considered basically a good marriage. It had its ups and downs but we both loved each other and there was a good physical relationship and we preferred each other's company to anyone else the majority of the time.

However, as I look around me, I see so many relationships between people that are legal marriages but look and sound more like prisons. As a kid, I was really affected by my parent's divorce. But as I look back as an adult, I think it was probably best for my mom because I think my dad had a personality disorder. He certainly didn't bother to make us kids a priority when he decided that he didn't love my mother anymore.

Anyway...now I wonder as I watch friends existing in marriages that do not possess any semblance of what I consider "marriage". They are roommates...and that is it. Some care about each other...some don't even like each other anymore.

I know that God does not like divorce but when does a marriage really end? Is sexually infidelity really only an affair or could it also include depriving the other by not being willing to participate in a "marital bed".

As a woman, I have spent more of my life seeing this from a woman's viewpoint of a man cheating on a "good woman"....but I am now starting to see men who "care" about their wives (and often would prefer them) but have been completely ignored or belittled by their spouses and end up having these affairs because they are being starved to death for real affection including physical contact.

Is the Christian answer really for people to stay together forever even after they have nothing that resembles a Godly marriage? The answer is to make an honest effort to come together again...but what if one party isn't willing to make that effort?

I believe in marriage with all my being. But I am starting to wonder if what we call "marriage" really is marriage. Maybe it is more than a legal document and living under the same roof.

 

[AVTechMan]

Marriage to me isn't what it used to be anymore. Long gone are the days where you see marriages lasting 40+ years. Too many marry for the wrong reasons. And it does get disconcerting when you hear words like 'my old lady' or 'the warden' or 'kiss your freedom goodbye'. I have always thought of marriage as a team partnership. Its one of the reasons why I am not sure if I will ever marry because I don't want a woman to suddenly tell me 'I don't love you anymore'. I'd rather stay single for the rest of my life than to hear that.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I had what I considered basically a good marriage. It had its ups and downs but we both loved each other and there was a good physical relationship and we preferred each other's company to anyone else the majority of the time.

However, as I look around me, I see so many relationships between people that are legal marriages but look and sound more like prisons. As a kid, I was really affected by my parent's divorce. But as I look back as an adult, I think it was probably best for my mom because I think my dad had a personality disorder. He certainly didn't bother to make us kids a priority when he decided that he didn't love my mother anymore.

Anyway...now I wonder as I watch friends existing in marriages that do not possess any semblance of what I consider "marriage". They are roommates...and that is it. Some care about each other...some don't even like each other anymore.

I know that God does not like divorce but when does a marriage really end? Is sexually infidelity really only an affair or could it also include depriving the other by not being willing to participate in a "marital bed".

As a woman, I have spent more of my life seeing this from a woman's viewpoint of a man cheating on a "good woman"....but I am now starting to see men who "care" about their wives (and often would prefer them) but have been completely ignored or belittled by their spouses and end up having these affairs because they are being starved to death for real affection including physical contact.

Is the Christian answer really for people to stay together forever even after they have nothing that resembles a Godly marriage? The answer is to make an honest effort to come together again...but what if one party isn't willing to make that effort?

I believe in marriage with all my being. But I am starting to wonder if what we call "marriage" really is marriage. Maybe it is more than a legal document and living under the same roof.

Ive noticed this in Christian marriages also. I believe the biggest reason Christian Marriages are not what they should be today , is, that the two people are looking upon their marriage as a Contract to each other instead of a Covenant between each and God and as a Couple Covenant to God . It changes the whole perspective when one views their marriage as a Covenant .
I also see Couples allowing our Godless culture influencing their Christian Marriages too much in addition to letting the stressors of life to burden their relationship .

While it is so unfortunate for you to loose your Husband, im glad that you were able to experience for a long time a dedicated Godly Man and Husband.................for that is something that is often missing in Marriages today. And if you both had children, then that too is a blessing from your Unity.

 

[blackribbon]

Now to be fair, AV...a marriage can last that long still if both people are committed to making it work. It would require you do your homework (and premarital counseling) before you say "I do" to make sure both people have the same expectations and goals.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Marriage to me isn't what it used to be anymore. Long gone are the days where you see marriages lasting 40+ years. Too many marry for the wrong reasons. And it does get disconcerting when you hear words like 'my old lady' or 'the warden' or 'kiss your freedom goodbye'. I have always thought of marriage as a team partnership. Its one of the reasons why I am not sure if I will ever marry because I don't want a woman to suddenly tell me 'I don't love you anymore'. I'd rather stay single for the rest of my life than to hear that.

While I still wholeheartedly believe in the sanctity of Marriage by God, I firmly believe that few should enter into it because they are not Marriage-prepared , don't occupy what it takes for lifelong commitment, lack the maturity and character/temperament , or get married because being alone has caused desperation . Im glad I got to experience marriage because there are many wonderful things about it, but, now im in my 50's I see remaining a Christian Single as a blessing , offers good availability to do Gods work , and providing me the most peace ive had in my life. God would really have to change my heart and desires to get married again, and it would have to be accompanied with many confirmations leading up to that . But there is a real peace in feeling that One is called to be Single and that it is a high-calling at that if used adequately for Gods purposes.

 

[dayhiker]

When I was looking divorce in the face and a large part of that was my fault. I had to find some answers in God's word. I reviewed a whole lot of what the Bible says and a whole lot of history. One of the things I read was a history of marriage. The author teaches a class by that name and has several book that came out of her research. Her conclusion as well as a lot of anthropologist is that there is such a variety of how couples come together that no one definition of marriage will work.

The teaching I've heard from the church about marriage has almost always been the ideal marriage from the 1950s ported back into the Bible. Now its been modified to give men and woman equal say in marriages. But in Bible times all the nations around Israel were very patriarchal and as much as Paul said a man was to love his wife and a woman was to honor her husband the man said what was going to happen and not only did his wife listen but even his married kids listened till he died. Now there were exceptions, but any thought that those exceptions were had much influence is fantasy as far as I can till from my studies in history.

Divorce as I was taught in the ancient Jewish world wasn't as the church taught me and wasn't as so many of the book I read said it was. Its been know since about the 1850s when scholars went back into the Jewish writings that there was a very narrow debate going on in Jesus' day about divorce. There were two sides just like many of out theological debates today. Jesus was asked about his view on that in Mat.19. He wasn't making an all encompassing command about divorce and remarriage results in the married person committing adultery like I was taught. So the Jews allowed divorce for many reasons, like if the woman didn't get pregnant and so give an heir to her husband.

Finally my thought is God loves us and commands us to love. But its clear to me that people can get so hurt from life that we can't go back to loving that person again. Christ has helped many love again, but we don't have to look far to find people that can't love a certain person. Its that person is a spouse I don't see God saying well suffer till you die. I think God would much prefer that that we divorce and go find someone to love. that is what we are commanded to do, love one another.

I'm just thinking the same people who will defend self defense also will say we should stay married no matter what. So you can defend ones physical life but we can't defend our emotions and our soul from being hurt! That is crazy to me.

 

[Elderado]

After being divorced twice, I highly doubt I could give an accurate definition of marriage. All I know is it would take a miracle for me to ever get married again. I want a woman, I just don't know if I want to marry her. THat probably makes me undesirable, but so be it.

 

[blackribbon]

From an article I read:


Marriage is the unification of two halves into one complete entity, described as "one flesh.”
It's not just poetics.
What is my commitment to my hand?
I am not committed to my hand. I am my hand. My commitment to my hand is one I'd reconsider if it became gangrenous, and I was left with no choice but amputation.
But I wouldn't reconsider my commitment to my hand if it were broken, or ugly, or if I met someone with a nicer hand. If your hand is killing you – then you get rid of it. The commitment of marriage is until it's killing you.
Divorce is appropriate when the marriage has become an abusive, destructive relationship that can't be cured. Amputation is never casual. Often people get divorced because they simply get bored with each other. The marriage goes stale and flat. "We don’t laugh like we used to anymore."

If someone told you that he was amputating his hand because "The fun went out of it" you'd say he's nuts. Marriage is exactly the same.


Rabbi Dan Silverman

 

[dayhiker]

ATV ... I know of a teacher, making a gross generalization, who says men shut down their hearts and choose not to love. While woman are always willing to love. Men are willing to have sex while it woman who shut down their sexuality. We know that isn't true in all cases, but I've heard enough comments to know its true for a lot of people. Your comment about not wanting a woman to tell you she doesn't love you any more reminded me of that.

Marriage to me isn't what it used to be anymore. Long gone are the days where you see marriages lasting 40+ years. Too many marry for the wrong reasons. And it does get disconcerting when you hear words like 'my old lady' or 'the warden' or 'kiss your freedom goodbye'. I have always thought of marriage as a team partnership. Its one of the reasons why I am not sure if I will ever marry because I don't want a woman to suddenly tell me 'I don't love you anymore'. I'd rather stay single for the rest of my life than to hear that.

 

[dayhiker]

I like what the Rabbi is saying. While I don't think a definitive definition of marriage cane be given, there are some things that are common to marriage.

Commitment to each other is one of them. Its not a commitment to do the dishes tho someone needs to do the dishes. It is a commitment to give grace to each other because none of us is perfect.

What is interesting in this regard is that the Bible doesn't list the wife will do the dishes, swap the floor and take the kids to the doctors. Nor does the Bible say the husband will bring home 85% of the money needed to run the house and slaughter the fatted calf.

Since these things aren't specified there are things that the couple has to specify and figure out themselves as to who will do what. This was a totally new idea to me a few years ago. So now when I meet a woman who wants to be in a relationship with me I bring this topic up because I'm not going to enter into a relationship when she defines what I'm going to give her. I tell her I can give you LIST. If that isn't what she wants then its clear to me I can't give her what she wants and I'm not going to spend time trying to give what I can't give. Now I don't offer her a nickle, when I make an offer I give something of myself that is valuable.
Its really made things a lot easier in relationships because when they come and say I want X ... If I can give X I'll still give it as I have no problem giving more than I offered if I can, but if I can't I go back to what I offered and say that wasn't something that I said I can give you and I still can't do that.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Very interesting Grasshopper!

The definition of marriage is unique because people are unique. I think it's sad to see people together when they really don't want to be. I have a girlfriend like this. She has cancer and her and her husband have sown so many seeds of bitterness over the years and neither of them wants to be the hero and pull up all those weeds!

And of course being a widow, I think "wow does she not know how lucky she is to have someone when you need them?"

Dr Phil says he wakes up every day thinking "what can I do to make my wife's life better today" Don't know if he really does that or if he just said he does but I think we would have more successful marriages if we all put God first and pleasing Him first, and then our spouse second but we don't. A lot of times we are thinking "what about me?" "what's in it for me?" and that's where problems begin.

 

[iambren]

I have been married and divorced three times. I can tell many horror stories and wonder that my heart/soul is intact or that I am lost on marriage at all. But I still think it's God's ideal and two people should work hard to make it a wonderful reality.

When my former wife was laying/sitting up nursing our oldest boy I laid beside her. As she,he,and I laid quietly there was a glow in the room that we both felt. That to me was the oneness-essence of marriage. I don't know if it was the imagery of the triad of us or the triad of God-wife-husband that mimicked the trilogy but it was powerful. I personally believe this power is maintained spiritually through regular sexual intercourse(being one) and if that breaks down so does the foundation.

Genesis says "In the image of God created He them,male and female created He them" an interesting parallelism. So an actual way of living can reflect who He is!

Culturally,I think marriage is "meat and potatoes". We live in a fast-paced,glittery,jazzed up world and married life is so out of step with that. Sometimes after 2-3 years married you've heard the same story or joke a million times. You find the selfish nooks/crannies of the mate,their pettiness,reluctance to change,and even boredom that makes you doubt your choice of mate. But it does stretch your patience and love and the rewards of stability outshine the glittery temptations that coast on by fading into the past.

 

[blackribbon]

What if one member of the marriage keeps making uni-lateral decisions that affect both members?....maybe makes major spending decisions...or decides to change careers and go to school....or loans (or gives away) money to their family....or rejoins the military....?

If one member of a marriage is making decisions like he/she is single, how does a Christian handle something like that?

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

What if one member of the marriage keeps making uni-lateral decisions that affect both members?....maybe makes major spending decisions...or decides to change careers and go to school....or loans (or gives away) money to their family....or rejoins the military....?

If one member of a marriage is making decisions like he/she is single, how does a Christian handle something like that?

Have you met my step daughter? LOL That would be a real problem but a lot of times it is happening and there really isn't anything the spouse can do about it. I am too independent to be happy being told what to do all the time. I will submit to my husband as long as he does not act like a dictator. But a lot of times in my marriage, I relented and gave in to whatever new thing he wanted to buy, pursue, or join and I don't feel like he reciprocated as much. Water under the bridge now, but if I got married in the future, I would want my man to be the man, but also to be kind and considerate, communicative and supportive and I would be all those things back (except being the man )

 

[dayhiker]

When a spouce is acting irresponsible without consideration for the marriage or others in the family, 1st off is total, but I suspect your question means that didn't work. I'd create a seperate finances. All the money I made would be in an account without her name on it. All my investments would no have her name on them. Then I'd start working who is going to pay the wills. I'd pay my part, but would expect her to cover some as well.

Other independent actions that don't take money I'd have to konw the details more and think about what action would work best.

 

[blackribbon]

When a spouce is acting irresponsible without consideration for the marriage or others in the family, 1st off is total, but I suspect your question means that didn't work. I'd create a seperate finances. All the money I made would be in an account without her name on it. All my investments would no have her name on them. Then I'd start working who is going to pay the wills. I'd pay my part, but would expect her to cover some as well.

Other independent actions that don't take money I'd have to konw the details more and think about what action would work best.

Can you do this in a Christian marriage? And how do you determine which member is really acting irresponsibly? I know a couple who the wife thought they had no money and they always willingly lived like they didn't though she didn't understand where the money went. She about had a heart attack when she found out how much he had been hiding from her because of his fear of being poor. It was enough that she bought herself a nice new house after the divorce settlement. She said he was a really good guy and a reasonably good day...but a horrible husband. In 20 years of marriage, she said she had never owned a piece of furniture that hadn't been given to them. She isn't frivolous now but she is enjoying life for the first time.

I have another friend who went to the bank one day because she got a call that her account was overdrawn and she knew that there was no way that could be. When she got there, the cashier asked WHICH account she was inquiring about. Turns out he had multiple accounts that she didn't know about while he was forcing her to live on a budget that didn't meet their monthly needs without some truly creative financing.

(My questions are based on relationships that I've observed not necessarily issues from my marriage.)

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

When my mom married my step dad she refused to bank with him because he would not balance his checkbook and was constantly having issues (which he said was always the banks fault). He would enter his deposit (no totals, just entering it in the register) then he would write his bills out and record them, but not subtracting anything, just listing them in the register. Then he would look at the deposit and look at what he wrote and "guess" how much money he had left to spend. AND he had overdraft protection on his account. One time he was so screwed up he had almost 800 dollars in returned check charges and overdraft charges. I could see why my mom didn't want to bank with him.

 

[dayhiker]

Well, I've not lived with someone who was hiding money and pretending to be someone I'm not. I've never had secret accounts. When the wife wanted to know what was going on the statements were all in one location.
So that's what I know ... how to live with someone who is hiding money .. I've not had to give any thought to that.

 

[blackribbon]

Would you marry someone with a pre-nup? Doesn't that basically mean I promise to love you with everything but my money? Can a pre-nup be part of a Christian union?

 

[dayhiker]

That's a good question. I think pre-nups can protect each party. I guess the consideration would be unique to each situation. I'd agree with you of the rich party wrote the pre-nup to not only keep ones money away in a breakup but also during the marriage. Clearly money can make relationship more complicated if we let it. I know I'm concern with with that a marriage would keep the money I've made in my life from going to my sons.
But I don't know that I'll face the decision as I have no desire to get married. That isn't really because of money issues but because I got a wide variety of things that I want to do and almost certianly a wife wouldn't want me doing them.