Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[bling]

The question is not "can you be God" -- rather the question is whether God has one Gospel or two or a zillion-and-two.

The question is: "Did you accept the gospel", God presented to you through others or by what ever means He used?

 

[BobRyan]

The question is: "Did you accept the gospel", God presented to you through others or by what ever means He used?

There is only one "one Gospel" from Adam to Revelation - Gal 1:6-9 and "that gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

Yet as Christ said in John 3 - the Holy Spirit works on everyone - and not everyone is fully aware of it.
Romans 2:13-16 says some folks in following the leading of the Holy Spirit - show the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit written on the heart and yet "do instinctively" the things of the Word of God - having not been formally informed about it.

 

[bling]

There is only one "one Gospel" from Adam to Revelation - Gal 1:6-9 and "that gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

Yet as Christ said in John 3 - the Holy Spirit works on everyone - and not everyone is fully aware of it.
Romans 2:13-16 says some folks in following the leading of the Holy Spirit - show the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit written on the heart and yet "do instinctively" the things of the Word of God - having not been formally informed about it.

Gal.3: 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The “Gospel” (Good News) is salvation has come to both Jews and Gentiles, by faith and not by Law. The Law made it easier for us to both see the need to trust (have faith in) God’s love and seek that Love.

That Gospel (Good News) has always been available to people.

The mechanism for seeking and accepting God’s charity might have stayed the same, but Christ going to the cross has been a huge help to both see the huge debt our sins have created, the unbelievable huge Love (a Love which can forgive) and to better realize God as our Parent.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I see such a Loving and Holy God because He is willing to do almost anything to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, with that "everything" includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even allowing man to sin.
God makes sin hugely significant shown in the suffering of Christ which creates an unbelievable huge debt so that his forgiveness of that debt will automatically produce an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) Luke 7 (...he that is forgiven much will love much...).

IF a sinner rejects Jesus to save them, they fall under the wrath of God, and its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of God and His wrath!

 

[YeshuaFan]

What or who has the authority to say: “God cannot save…”?

When scripture talks about salvation in the New Testament it tells those being addressed at that time and place what they need for salvation which is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, but it is not addressing God, telling Him what He needs to save?

Yes, if one rejects Jesus or rejects salvation they are “lost”, but where does it say: “All those including babies and mentally challenged, who never heard about Christ are automatically hell bound”.

I am talking about those who have the mental capacity to receive jesus Christ, as their rejection is due to their sinfulness, but I trust God to do what is right concerning those that you mentioned unable to trust in Jesus...

 

[YeshuaFan]

The scripture says "whosoever" and talks about "hearing" and not first being enabled by the Spirit. So everyone lost is due to the fact God did not enable them?

No, all of us are born as sinners, who are guilty in Adam Fall before God!

 

[BobRyan]

The “Gospel” (Good News) is salvation has come to both Jews and Gentiles, by faith and not by Law.

Agreed. There was never "good news: salvation comes by Law" in all of the Bible OT or NT.

That is "no change".

 

[bling]

IF a sinner rejects Jesus to save them, they fall under the wrath of God, and its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of God and His wrath!

Right

 

[bling]

I am talking about those who have the mental capacity to receive jesus Christ, as their rejection is due to their sinfulness, but I trust God to do what is right concerning those that you mentioned unable to trust in Jesus...

OK agree

 

[bling]

No, all of us are born as sinners, who are guilty in Adam Fall before God!

So a baby born is a sinner and if it dies it is a sinner before God's judgement?
This is another subject and we might not agree.

 

[bling]

Agreed. There was never "good news: salvation comes by Law" in all of the Bible OT or NT.

That is "no change".

OK, but the Law is wonderful, just not obtainable.

 

[BobRyan]

OK, but the Law is wonderful, just not obtainable.

All have sinned - Rom 3:23 so no one can come to God on the basis of never having sinned.

But Romans 8:4-11 makes it very clear that it is only the lost, only the wicked that "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" - as contrasted to the saints. Thus John can write "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1 and Paul in Romans 6 declares the end of "slavery" to sin.

 

[BobRyan]

So a baby born is a sinner and if it dies it is a sinner before God's judgement?
This is another subject and we might not agree.

Babies have sinful natures - at birth. By definition that is a nature with a 'bent' towards rebellion against God. However - babies also have a Savior. Jesus Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2. So then they need a savior - and they have one. "To him who KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17. Babies with their nature bent towards rebellion still don't have the mental ability to "know to do right" or to claim the power of God to resist sin. They are covered.

 

[YeshuaFan]

So a baby born is a sinner and if it dies it is a sinner before God's judgement?
This is another subject and we might not agree.

God saves infants not because they were not sinners and not guilty, but due to Him applying the Grace of the Cross towards them, doing for them what they cannot due for themselves!

 

[bling]

All have sinned - Rom 3:23 so no one can come to God on the basis of never having sinned.

But Romans 8:4-11 makes it very clear that it is only the lost, only the wicked that "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" - as contrasted to the saints. Thus John can write "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1 and Paul in Romans 6 declares the end of "slavery" to sin.

Yes! All mature adults have sinned (like the all the people Paul is addressing), but that does not mean new born babies have sinned? Paul goes on to tell them what they must be doing, but it is not stuff babies can do.
Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had, so why does our nature have to change for us to sin?

 

[bling]

God saves infants not because they were not sinners and not guilty, but due to Him applying the Grace of the Cross towards them, doing for them what they cannot due for themselves!

Do you have scripture verses saying this?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes! All mature adults have sinned (like the all the people Paul is addressing), but that does not mean new born babies have sinned? Paul goes on to tell them what they must be doing, but it is not stuff babies can do.
Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had, so why does our nature have to change for us to sin?

Babies have a "bent" toward evil - it is in their nature. To "fix" that they need a savior. So the argument is not that babies need the Gospel but don't get it. Rather the argument is that the Gospel covers babies, and they get the Gospel benefit of having their sinful nature removed when they are raised at the 1 Thess 4 resurrection and rapture event that takes place at the 2nd coming.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes! All mature adults have sinned (like the all the people Paul is addressing), but that does not mean new born babies have sinned? Paul goes on to tell them what they must be doing, but it is not stuff babies can do.
Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had, so why does our nature have to change for us to sin?

Babies are not innocent in themselves, as they also were touched by the Fall, and so are sinners by nature!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Babies have a "bent" toward evil - it is in their nature. To "fix" that they need a savior. So the argument is not that babies need the Gospel but don't get it. Rather the argument is that the Gospel covers babies, and they get the Gospel benefit of having their sinful nature removed when they are raised at the 1 Thess 4 resurrection and rapture event that takes place at the 2nd coming.

Yes, for all humans save for Jesus Himself are under the curse of the fall, and still need Jesus to save them!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Do you have scripture verses saying this?

When King David baby died as a direct result of his sinning, David knew that he would one day go to see that baby, and David was a man after God's own heart, and was heaven bound, so the baby should have been also!