Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[bling]

I relegate it to the category of other mysteries. That spares me from the need of trying to understand it with man's wisdom. Faith does not require understanding. In fact efforts to try to understand can lead to loss of faith.



Experiencing Christ is what the Christian life is about. Not knowing how many angels can sit on the head of a pin & many other irrelevant & or unknowable things discussed on message forums. I consider spending my time in prayer to be what the Lord would rather i be doing than idly wasting my life on irrelevancies & idle chit chat. Every idle word will be brought into judgment.

Phil.3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Psa.34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Faith is a humbling activity and we all need to be humble enough to accept pure sacrificial charity (especially forgiveness). But as Christians we do not have to have "faith" in God's existence or in God fulfilling all His promises since we now have the guarantee found in the indwelling Holy Spirit (our assurance).
Being crucified is not some trivial matter and we are told to remember the crucifixion every time we take of the Lord's Super, so since we are right there at the same time being crucified with Christ we cannot avoid remembering the hurt of our crucifixion with Him.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ's human suffering -- torment by Roman soldiers could never have paid the debt owed for even 1 sinner. It was merely the outward demonstration... visual aide.

As nonbelieving sinners, we all deserve to justly be tortured, humiliated, crucified and go to hell from God. The fact that Christ physically was tortured, humiliated, crucified and murdered and we physically are not, means at lease there is some kind of substitution.

BUT: Is Penal Substitution (PS) happening? Where God is seeing to Christ’s torture, humiliation, crucifixion and murder (punishment), instead of God punishing humans (or saved individuals).

2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".

Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.

We do have the killing of the innocent baby son of David and Bathsheba: Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

David’s innocent son’s illness and death should have been David’s illness and death, so is this penal substitution or is it God’s just way of indirectly further punishing/disciplining David for his sins?

It is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.

If we Love Christ more than David loved the son he caused to become ill, than should we be at least as sorrowful as David?

Indeed - that is the point of it.

If I am just one of billions of sinners causing Christ’s time on the cross, then I might be responsible for a few nanoseconds of His time on the cross, but do I play a greater part?

Christ prayed repeatedly His most intense prayer in the Garden which we have only one verse asking: “if there was any other way…”, but what “other way” could there be? If I personally had fulfilled my earthly objective without sinning, Christ would not have had to go to the cross for me, but could I personally have provided “another way”? If I had done it without sinning there would be another way without having Christ go to the cross, so could God have looked down the corridor of time and seen me not needing Christ to go to the cross and stopped Christ going?

No - because Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.

This puts the whole blame for Christ crucifixion on me (I did not keep from sinning) and not just being responsible for a nanosecond of time on the cross.

Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.

We have the first Christian sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2) and similar sermons in Acts that are truly Christ Crucified Sermons, yet say nothing about Christ taking our place on the cross, but say lots about our putting Christ on the cross, so are we to experience a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37) or have a sigh of relief because we avoid being disciplined/punished?

Gal 2:20 - crucified with Christ
Romans 6:1-5 buried with him in baptism - death to sin, death to self.

Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer all describe Christ’s crucifixion as an actual ransom payment, so there is a payment involve, but to whom?

It is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul seems to say: (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also would mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Instead of zapping each sinner the moment they commit their first sin - He draws them in grace to Himself... both OT and NT.


26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.

Leviticus 16 - "Day of Atonement" is a visual aide used by God to show that the Atonement doctrine must include the role of Christ as the "sin offering" -- as the "atoning sacrifice"... and also the role of Christ as the Hebrews 8:1-6 "High Priest". Both ministries of Christ are needed for it to work.

Atonement in the OT was a fine levied and paid for in the sacrifice of a costly animal to God. It paid the debt for sin at the owner's expense.

God points out in Isaiah 51 and in Hebrews 10:4-5 that the animal sacrifices did nothing at all. Not even the hand full of flour or dove did the trick when it comes to paying the full price for sin - the price of torment and suffering in the Rev 20 lake of fire.

(But God also made provision for the less wealthy). Today we use money or time in jail to pay for our sins against the system.

Only if the payment owed is not death. If the payment is death (for example - the payment for murder) then no amount of money or time in jail will do.

But this sacrifice in the OT didn't save, it only curtailed sin at a civil level as money and jail time does today.

Which is like saying nobody in the OT was forgiven of sin. But in fact forgiveness full and free was offerred in both OT and NT. Hence Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven without dying and Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matthew 17 ... before the cross even happens. Fully forgiven of sins.

But it taught a spiritual principle to the enlightened. That by laying their hands on the animal to be slaughtered, the animal was their costly substitute needed if their sin would be atoned for.

Jesus paid for our sins offering himself in our place to God for sins we could never pay for, even through suffering an eternity in hell. And on this basis God can remain just and good, receiving our due compensation in Christ's payment for sins in our behalf. While being perfectly loving by absorbing our debt in himself.

And "not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2 including all who lived before Christ was born.

 

[bling]

Christ's human suffering -- torment by Roman soldiers could never have paid the debt owed for even 1 sinner. It was merely the outward demonstration... visual aide.

I fully agree with this: “Christ's human suffering -- torment by Roman soldiers could never have paid the debt owed for even 1 sinner”, but is God’s Love and power great enough to forgive such a debt?

I do not agree at all with: “. It was merely the outward demonstration... visual aide”. To suggest it is only a “visual aide” would mean it is not really needed, but how many of those 3000 would have been baptized on Pentecost, if Christ had not physically gone to the cross?
What kind of person (let alone God) would see to the torture, humiliation and murder of the own innocent son to allow the undeserving guilty to go free? What is God lacking that He needs anything like the sacrifice of an innocent person to have the Love to forgive?

Penal substitution is non-participatory, while having you be crucified “with” Christ is very participatory.

God forgives those who repent, seek his forgiveness, and humbly accept His forgiveness. Today we also have away to be crucified (fairly justly disciplined) for our sins by being crucified with Christ, but those refusing this fair just discipline will be severely punished, with hell. Being disciplined by a loving parent and be punished are very different, but are both fair and just (equal) dependent on the acceptance of the sinner.

2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".

This verse comes up a lot, so what does Christ becoming “sin” mean to you, did He become an intangible concept (sin), did He become a sinner, or what?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21

Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

Not sure which verse you are referring to and which translation so I will address it after I have your specific verse.

He suffers the second death in our place.

Scripture does not say that.

It is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.

I fully agree it was not penal substitution (David suffered).

Indeed - that is the point of it.

Agree good observation: This is the crucifixion “with” Christ and the suffering/punishment/discipline we are to feel.


You did not address this: If I am just one of billions of sinners causing Christ’s time on the cross, then I might be responsible for a few nanoseconds of His time on the cross, but do I play a greater part?

No - because Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.

That is not what I was suggesting would happen, but since I fulfilled my objective without sinning and thus not needing Christ to go to the cross for a person, there would be another way for at least me and hopefully others without Christ going to the cross, if I had done it?

Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.

So, Christ was not tempted like me with a “sinful nature”? There is nothing to suggest Christ was born with a better “nature” different than myself, He just did not sin, because He have the added Love (as a non-created being), which I will later have to accept from God to become like Christ.

Did Christ receive the same knowledge of good and evil?

Gal 2:20 - crucified with Christ
Romans 6:1-5 buried with him in baptism - death to sin, death to self.

OK, but did you experience a death blow to your heart?

It is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.

So, God is the undeserving kidnapper taking the ransom payment???

There is no cosmic “Law” concerning debt “payments” which God “must” follow?

All mature adults have died spiritually by sinning and if Christ does not come in their life time will die physically, which is what happened to Adam and is the death(s) talked about which sinning caused and was not done away with by Christ dying.

Can God forgive the largest of debts?

people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

What do you mean by “all mankind”, would that include the unborn child?

Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Instead of zapping each sinner the moment they commit their first sin - He draws them in grace to Himself... both OT and NT.

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.

Leviticus 16 - "Day of Atonement" is a visual aide used by God to show that the Atonement doctrine must include the role of Christ as the "sin offering" -- as the "atoning sacrifice"... and also the role of Christ as the Hebrews 8:1-6 "High Priest". Both ministries of Christ are needed for it to work.

All these OT sacrifices were just “poor” shadows of the reality that will come with Christ, but I do not see how they were visual aids for some deeper meaning in themselves?